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Honest Question for Conservatives

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Wildo7, Oct 2, 2008.

  1. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    I'd like for you to please answer this as honestly as possible. This isn't a football game, so if we can drop the "my team won the game" trash talk for a minute I want to get your perspective on this:

    Whether or not you think Palin's "performance" tonight was good, do you think she came across as "knowledgeable? She proved she has confidence and personality that appeals to certain people, but in terms of the actual arguments, do you think she actually knew what she was talking about or was she just reciting stuff she memorized? I realize Biden has talking points too, but he's been working on these issues for a while and whether you agree with his policies or not, he's at the very least informed. Can you honestly say that Palin has thought through the issues she was talking about tonight and came to the opinions she expressed on her own?

    In short, did she:

    a) Know this stuff all along, the MSM was just rattling her or trying to unfairly make her look like she didn't know what she was talking about

    b)Not know any of this stuff but after the past month has been informed of the issues and now understands all of the positions she is promoting

    or

    c) Just memorize a bunch of little issue segments well enough to pick and choose from them and recite them in a way that was coherent
     
  2. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    If you had asked this question last week when Obama gave his cue card answers that were different than the question I would give you an honest answer.
     
  3. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    Obama knows about the issues. Whether you think he's right or wrong or inexperienced or whatever, even if he's giving cue card answers (like Biden did) you know that someone who taught consitutional Law for 12 years at Harvard and even in his short time in the Senate, must be aware and opinionated about the national issues. To compare his knowledge of national issues to someone that you don't even know whether she knows about anything nationally is downright laughable, not to mention a total obfuscation from a question that is obviously difficult for you to honestly answer.
     
  4. PF1996

    PF1996 Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    So, to translate righty spin to reality - "no, I can't say with a straight face that Palin demonstrated that she has any knowledge beyond that of a hick town housewife".


    Answer this question - What would you be saying right now had Palin been the Democratic candidate for VP? :rolleyes:
     
  5. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    I just don't understand why people put any stock in a person that is just memorizing little speeches that aren't based on her own opinions. What's the point? If you don't think she even understands what she's talking about deep down, how can you think she did a "good job?" What is the point of a debate if it's all just acting?
     
  6. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Your first post reveals your prejudices , you assume that Palin memorized cue card answers, but that BO knows the issues on the basis of lecturing at a college??


    Palin has proven to be an able executive whereas none of the other candidates have executive experience.
     
  7. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    I offered three options, I can't hide my prejudices but I want to know what you honestly think. Apparently I can't get an honest straight answer. I said that I wasn't talking about experience, I was talking about what she said tonight. Either she knew what she was talking about and always did, knew what she was talking about and just figured it out, or never knew and is just reciting memorized points. If it's the latter, what is the point of a debate?
     
  8. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I'd love to help out here but I was at one of my kids' soccer practices so I missed it. I don't think Obama nor Palin has ever looked thoroughly knowledgeable. The reason Obama is deemed an economic expert is because he's further away from Bush than McCain. He's never seemed particularly knowledgeable about the economy to me.
     
  9. MrSparkle

    MrSparkle Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    I think that she knew some of the topics tonight and others she memorized. I felt the same about Obama.

    Why would any Righty respond to this thread. We all know that the lefties will jump down any honest post. Same thing happened to patters when I asked for an honest response, the righties jumped down his. I didn't read it till latter and didn't want to bump it.

    She may not know all the answers, she will learn. I'm ok with that. The alternative means Obama wins, I'm not ok with that. He is not who he says he is. He is not good for this country, his intentions are not noble. I've felt this way from the very beginning and that won't change. I can offer no proof or information why I feel this way. I can't help the way I feel. We must each find our own truth, I'm comfortable with mine.

    Flame away, I know you guys are frothing at the mouth so just get it out of the way.
     
  10. MrSparkle

    MrSparkle Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    Right back at ya babe:

    Joe Biden's 14 Lies

    1. TAX VOTE: Biden said McCain voted “the exact same way” as Obama to increase taxes on Americans earning just $42,000, but McCain DID NOT VOTE THAT WAY.

    2. AHMEDINIJAD MEETING: Joe Biden lied when he said that Barack Obama never said that he would sit down unconditionally with Mahmoud Ahmedinijad of Iran. Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe Biden attacked him for it.

    3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING: Biden said, “Drill we must.” But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to “raping” the Outer Continental Shelf.”

    4. TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same way against funding the troops in the field. John McCain opposed a bill that included a timeline, that the President of the United States had already said he would veto regardless of it’s passage.

    5. OPPOSING CLEAN COAL: Biden says he’s always been for clean coal, but he just told a voter that he is against clean coal and any new coal plants in America and has a record of voting against clean coal and coal in the U.S. Senate.

    6. ALERNATIVE ENERGY VOTES: According to FactCheck.org, Biden is exaggerating and overstating John McCain’s record voting for alternative energy when he says he voted against it 23 times.

    7. HEALTH INSURANCE: Biden falsely said McCain will raise taxes on people's health insurance coverage -- they get a tax credit to offset any tax hike. Independent fact checkers have confirmed this attack is false

    8. OIL TAXES: Biden falsely said Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska -- she reformed the state tax and revenue system, it's not a windfall profits tax.

    9. AFGHANISTAN / GEN. MCKIERNAN COMMENTS: Biden said that top military commander in Iraq said the principles of the surge could not be applied to Afghanistan, but the commander of NATO's International Security Assistance Force Gen. David D. McKiernan said that there were principles of the surge strategy, including working with tribes, that could be applied in Afghanistan.

    10. REGULATION: Biden falsely said McCain weakened regulation -- he actually called for more regulation on Fannie and Freddie.

    11. IRAQ: When Joe Biden lied when he said that John McCain was “dead wrong on Iraq”, because Joe Biden shared the same vote to authorize the war and differed on the surge strategy where they John McCain has been proven right.

    12. TAX INCREASES: Biden said Americans earning less than $250,000 wouldn’t see higher taxes, but the Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more.

    13. BAILOUT: Biden said the economic rescue legislation matches the four principles that Obama laid out, but in reality it doesn’t meet two of the four principles that Obama outlined on Sept. 19, which were that it include an emergency economic stimulus package, and that it be part of “part of a globally coordinated effort with our partners in the G-20.”

    14. REAGAN TAX RATES: Biden is wrong in saying that under Obama, Americans won't pay any more in taxes then they did under Reagan.
     
  11. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    just a few of my favorites among a MASSIVE list of Palin gaffes and lies tonight... not surprisingly, however, the "up is down" party insists she won.... too funny... game, set, match... better bump some ships in the Persian Gulf, war party...

    anyhoo, here we are:

    9:09: Palin wants John McCain to get credit for having “suspended” his campaign to work on the economic crisis, but as is now well known there was no suspension.

    9:11: Palin’s claim that two years ago, McCain was warning about an economic crisis is an exaggeration. In an interview in November 2007, McCain admitted that he was clueless about the economic mess: “So, I’d like to tell you that I did anticipate it, but I have to give you straight talk, I did not.”

    9:12: Palin accuses Obama of voting along party lines, ignoring the fact that McCain has voted 100 percent of the time with Bush in 2008.

    9:15: Palin claimed that Barack Obama had voted to increase taxes 94 times. Factcheck.org called this “count is padded.” “A closer look reveals that he’s voted consistently to restore higher tax rates on upper-income taxpayers but not on middle- or low-income workers,” wrote Factcheck.

    9:28: Palin is touting herself as an energy expert, but she recently claimed that Alaska produces “nearly 20 percent of the U.S. domestic supply of energy.” In reality, “Alaska’s share of domestic energy production was 3.5 percent.”

    9:37: Palin said that global warming is, in part, caused by human activity. But in a recently released interview with Newsmax, Palin said, “I’m not one though who would attribute it to being man-made.” In Dec. 2007, she reportedly said, “I’m not an Al Gore, doom-and-gloom environmentalist blaming the changes in our climate on human activity.”

    9:44: Palin just said that the plan that Obama, Maliki, and President Bush currently supports is “a white flag of surrender.”

    9:45: Palin says that Obama voted against funding for the troops, but FactCheck.org says “that’s hardly the whole story.” In April 2007, Democrats added a “non-binding call to withdraw” to a troop funding measure. “McCain (who was absent for the vote) urged the president to veto that funding measure, because of the withdrawal language. President Bush did veto it, and McCain applauded Bush’s veto. Based on those facts, it would be literally true to say that ‘McCain urged a veto of funding for our troops.’”

    9:46: Palin spoke about the importance of the war in Iraq. In March 2007, Palin admitted, “I’ve been so focused on state government, I haven’t really focused much on the war in Iraq.”

    9:50: Palin keep pronouncing “nuclear” as “nuculur” — perhaps because she doesn’t have her phonetic notes in front of her.

    9:51: Like McCain, Palin keeps referring to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as the “leader of Iran.” However, as Biden noted, the Ayatollah Khameini is the leader of Iran who sets policy.

    10:02: Palin keeps saying that someone named “McClellan” (perhaps the Civil War general?) didn’t say this or that. But the question at issue is statements made by General David McKiernan, the commanding officer in Afghanistan.

    10:08: The Washington Post’s Fact Checker says that Palin’s claim that Biden backed McCain’s military policies until this presidential race “is flatly false.” 10:14: Watch the video of Palin repeatedly referring to Gen. McKiernan as “McClellan”:

    10:16: Palin said she was grateful the Constitution granted the authority to the Vice President to preside over the Senate “should they choose to exert it.” Of course, presiding over the Senate is not a choice, it’s a mandated duty of the Constitution. And the VP only casts votes in the event of a tie.

    10:17: Palin claimed that Alaska’s “energy” supply (by which she means only oil) is helping America on the path to energy independence. This is nonsense.

    10:21: Asked to describe her weaknesses, Palin seems to be answering a completely different question that only she heard. She delivered a rambling answer describing her strengths and what she would bring to the ticket. Ifill asked no follow-up question. (as she refrained from doing throughout the debate)...

    10:28: Palin said that she can’t think of anything on which she changed her position. And if you believe that, there’s a Bridge to Nowhere we’d like to sell you.

    10:32: Palin bragged that as governor, she has appointed people “regardless of political affiliation.” However, high school affiliation has been very important. As the New York Times noted, “The Wasilla High School yearbook archive now doubles as a veritable directory of state government.” Palin has appointed her former junior high band-mate, among others.

    10:35: Palin said we’re now at pre-surge troop levels in Iraq. This is wrong. There were 130,000 troops in Iraq before the surge. Today, there are 147,000 troops in Iraq. (UPDATE: McCain made this same error in June.)​


    oh, and... the reaction:

    11:14: Yglesias points to the CBS instapoll showing that undecided voters watching the debate thought Biden won by 46 percent, compared to 21 percent for Palin. (UPDATE: CNN poll on “Who Did the Best Job In the Debate?” Biden 51% Palin 36%)

    10:44: On Fox News, Mort Kondracke admitted that Palin is not ready to be president. Regarding Biden, he said, “If he had to move into the presidency on the basis of experience…he’s better qualified than she is by a long shot.”

    10:43: CNN analysts discussed Palin’s vagueness. “I think at the beginning of the debate, Sarah Palin’s problem was that she wasn’t answering questions directly,” Campbell Brown said, while another CNN pundit, Hillary Rosen, said of Palin’s discussion of the economy, “I don’t think she really substantively gave answers.”

    10:39: CNN’s Campbell Brown said she didn’t see the debate as a “game-changer.” She said of Palin, “The second half on foreign policy, she did seem a little out of her depth. It’s not her area of expertise, and it often felt like she was reciting memorized talking points. I thought Biden showed remarkable self-restraint throughout the evening…for example when she got the name of Gen. McKiernan wrong.”

    10:55: CNN’s debate coverage is sponsored by American Coalition for Clean Coal Electricity. (UPDATE: Exxon is too.)

    10:51: Harold Ford remarked on Sarah Palin’s lack of responsiveness to Gwen Ifill’s questions: “she had a set of answers to a set of questions, even if the question was not asked she was going to provide the answer.”​
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2008
  12. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I betcha she would not have been qualified to be considered as a Dem VP.. her responses seemed to be very patterned and when she did not know something she often changed the topic and did not answer the questions.. some of her answers were real wtf material, several times I asked my wife did she really say that???
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2008
  13. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    I noticed a number of these bold-faced lies by Biden during the debate (my wife and I got up at 3:45 AM to watch it live), and I kept waiting for Palin to hit back on many of them, but, unfortunately, she is new to the Washington game, and she repeatedly got shellacked by Biden's gamemanship, particularly on his twisting of the facts to suit his partisan advantage. Big loss for America.

    In particular, as highlighted above, Biden's claim that McCain "weakened" regulation over the gargantuan build-up of the sub-prime mortgage meltdown was so over-the-top it was all I could do not to throw the channel changer at the TV. Outrageous. How does he sleep at night, I wonder.

    Forcing banks to throw out all their hundreds of years of experience regarding who is capable of paying back their debts -- as the Democrats did when they instituted the CRA -- is a symptom of things to come under a would-be Obama presidency. By telling the banks that they had to give away mortgage money to people who did not have a proven means to pay it back is just plain wrong; it is a disaster waiting to happen; and now it has -- very curious timing on this, by the way. Not only did it create the catastrophe we are now enduring in the economy, it also artificially pumped up prices of homes and real estate because mortgage money has been so easy to get, far, far TOO easy to get. When will people wake up to this???

    Biden and Obama are willing to do anything, say anything, lie through their teeth, in order to win an election. I felt so sick at this night's debate as I watched the "slick" Washington steamroll middle America.

    If Obama and Biden were to win, we can all expect a very different America, all right. It would be a socialized America as never before, with people being forced to give up their hard-earned money to a government which is not qualified, not competent, and not with the ownership mindset to decide on how that money will be properly used. Favoritism, artificial, state-mandated quotas, nepotism, and all the other forms of corruption we have seen too often in the past would explode in America as never seen before, destroying the cherished values of free choice, liberty, and self-responsibility in the process, the very values that made America great in the first place.

    Look at what has happened to Zimbabwe and South Africa: Zimbabwe (Rhodesia) went from one of the most prosperous nations in Africa to an economic basket case today; South Africa's economy has also declined, and today there are now 50 murders per DAY on average, according to CNN. They have one of the most violent cultures on earth.

    Change for its own sake is a bad, bad choice, inviting demagoguery and dictatorship. Change we need but it must be orderly and with all people accounted for. We cannot mandate that people take responsibility for themselves, but we can do a much better job rewarding those who do. Give-aways and quota-based freebies don't do that; instead, they encourage laziness, self-justification for bad behavior, and it destroys incentive for people to work harder.

    I urge everyone to check this latest updated version, and look at it carefully; pause to check the actual documents, via search engine of your choice:

    YouTube - Burning Down The House: What Caused Our Economic Crisis?

    Also check this website: http://www.politicalforum.com/

    America's future is truly at stake. May God bless us all.


    //
     
  14. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    "Other factors" indeed! But, the question is: what started this economic melt-down??? Every problem has a beginning point. Things don't just happen out of thin air; to believe that means to go back 500 years and before, into the time of superstition. We are no longer in such a blind faith age; we have very developed science AND the scientific method to accurately examine cause and effect.

    What caused the current economic melt-down is very clear: it was an ill-informed, badly-reasoned, false-premised concept known as the CRA. Other factors LATER jumped on this grand-daddy boondoggle, but CRA was the genesis. All diseases have a starting point. It is not like five or ten problems suddenly attacked the body simultaneously. ONE issue started this this massive infection that now threatens the entire body with termination, and that issue was the CRA.

    See the latest: YouTube - Burning Down The House: What Caused Our Economic Crisis?

    //
     
  15. STFarmy

    STFarmy In the Starting Line-Up

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    I'm reposting this cause of the database funkiness earlier.

    FactCheck.org: FactChecking Biden-Palin Debate

    Both had their fair share of inaccuracies. But that's what happens when you throw out talking points, as that's what these debates have degenerated to.

    As for Wildo's question, I think it's B and C. She's smarter than some would give her credit for, but she definitely had rehearsed talking points that she memorized and regurgitated regardless of the question. But Biden did the same thing. Before the reset, PF 1996 said:

    I'm not insulting anyone, but if you think that he wasn't doing the same thing by throwing out talking points (that were factually inaccurate as Factcheck.org pointed out), then you're fooling yourself. Biden's answers were not always on topic. They both steered the conversation towards their respective, rehearsed talking points. It's partisan to think otherwise.
     
  16. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey


    The MSM is saying there were no major gaffes and they all proclaim Biden the winner of the debate. Either the MSM are a bunch or morons or they think the public is. How can you lie so much ... distort the facts so much and win a debate. This isn't horseshoes, this isn't carpet bombing ... this is a debate for the 2nd highest office in the country and America deserved better than to be lied to.
     
  17. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think she is just as capable of being the The President Of The USA as anybody else in Washington or for that fact anybody in the country, what has Obama got that Palin doesn't have, if she is so "unknowledgeable" why couldn't that blowhard Biden disgrace and humiliate her, every inteligent Democrat leader and every fair and honest Left Wing Media person in America got thrown for a loop last night they never knew what hit them, Sarah Palin destroyed Joe Biden it was written all over Biden's face and Gwen Ifill was starting to wet herself she couldn't wait for it to end.

    I would love to see this women Debate "The Great Messiah" without his Teleprompter, she would make a fool out of him also.

    If Sarah is so stupid, if Sarah is so unkowledgeable, if Sarah doesn't know what she is talking about why didn't Joe Jerko Biden the big "Mr Cool" democrat destroy her, why is the whole country praising her today, why isn't the democrat media laughing at her instead they all look like they have been run over by a truck.

    If the democrats really want to humiliate and destroy Sarah Angel Palin why don't they demand a debate between her and their "Holy Great One" The Messiah himself one on one no Teleprompter, Sarah would crucify him and they all know it.

    If Sarah were a democrat every democrat in the Country would be dancing in the street today.
     
  18. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    And anyone who bothers to go back and re-examine Barack Obama's first debate with John McCain will see Obama avoided many questions asked of him, to first rant on what he had memorized and prepared to say ahead of time -- REGARDLESS of whether he was asked about it or not. This is not unique to either person's behavior, but to flag it as some kind of "big deal" on Palin's part is extremely ridiculous, especially since this was her first ever national debate.

    All in all, she acquitted herself exceptionally well. The seasoned old pro (who represents "change"????) Biden may have won more "style points" for his snappy and polished delivery, but for content alone, Palin rang the right notes as to the heart of the matter: freedom, responsibility, genuine compassion. Unless you want to see socialism come to America, and see the American people become like many Europeans and others, who have become totally dependent upon government to solve all problems, and "leadership" has become a lost characteristic, then we need to support the Republican ticket.

    Socialism would reduce America to just another of the mass of nations in the world, with nothing exceptional about her anymore. I want to see that exceptional character of world leadership continue. I'd much rather have illegals trying desperately to sneak in to my country than have my government maintain armed borders to imprison me and all Americans from leaving.

    //
     
  19. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    illegals try to sneak into Lithuania?
     
  20. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    The MSM is genuinely out of touch with what is important anymore. They all know their jobs are not at risk. They know they cannot be closed down in America; they've played their "First Amendment" card so many times the pols and the MSM have an unwritten agreement of keeping each in business, and the public be damned.

    The MSM are always so busy washing the butts of both parties -- but unquestionably the Democrat party is their favorite; though, like big corporations, they always send in maximum donations to BOTH sides so they can demand their chits later -- they have lost the ability to incisively analyze the contents of the public officials they are supposed to be vetting for the public good.

    In watching the CNN "best political analytical team in the business", I was struck by their completely missing Biden's lying on McCain's record, and Biden's false representation of his own record. It is the media's duty to call out such mistakes by ALL candidates, not just the ones they do NOT personally like.
     

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