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Honduras: Coup, or upholding the constitution?

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Real World, Jun 29, 2009.

  1. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Is anyone paying attention to what's going on in Honduras? I only began reading about it today. It seems uncertain what the truth is. Is this an illegal coup by the military, or is the military abiding by their Supreme Court's ruling, and constitution? I only know what I've read, so who knows which is true. I certainly couldn't say at this point. Have any of you been following this more closely?

    Obama, Chavez, Castro, Noreaga, and some other assorted leaders are calling it illegal.

    Obama says Honduran ouster was 'not legal'


    The WSJ has an article out that explains, generally, what transpired with the Supreme Court, president, AG, and military general.

    O'Grady: Honduras Defends Its Democracy - WSJ.com


    I find this very fascinating in the sense that it made me wonder what would happen here, in a similar scenario. What would the military do if the SCOTUS ruled that the presidents actions were unconstitutional, and the military were ordered into action. Interesting stuff.

    CNN


    Ah, and here we have it maybe? Apparently, term limits just don't appeal to some people. Go figure. Looks like they sell Coke and Pepsi all over the "free" world.

  2. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's a coup unless what happened is permissible under the Honduran constitution. Given the history of so many South American countries, it's always alarming when the military decides to take matters into their own hands. There might have come a time for that to happen, but first all constitutional methods should be exhausted. We may not like Zelaya, but so far no one has accused him of being elected undemocratically. In a democracy, the people have the right to elect idiots, something I think we all agree on.
  3. ljuneau

    ljuneau Rookie

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    Honduras Defends Its Democracy

    The Wall Street Journal articles details what happened. Basically, Zelaya was trying to pull a Hugo Chavez. The Honduras Supreme Court basically defended their country's constitution. Good for them!
  4. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    Exactomondo. This Zelaya guy thinks he can pull a Hoooogo Chavez and change the term limits all by his lonesome, without the Honduran Congress' or Courts' consideration. Can anyone spell "dictatorship"????



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  5. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Leave it to the right to defend a military coup. This is the same sort of attitude that allowed fascist dictators in Chile, Paraguay, and other states to murder and torture their citizens with US blessing. The Honduras Supreme Court only defended the Constitution if they have the Constitutional right to remove a President, which I rather doubt.

    I know nothing about Zelaya, but I'm very glad Obama is backing the rule of law and the democratic systems, rather than return to the dark ages of Reagan when we looked the other way while terrible crimes were committed by the dictators Reagan was in bed with.
  6. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    There you go, engaging in petty disinformation again. And pathetically sophomoric disinformation, at that.

    Zelaya was trying to change the Honduran Constitution all by himself, even AFTER the Congress and Courts had told him: no changes will be allowed.

    It is Zelaya who attempted a coup on the nation of Honduras, no one else. Good that he's gone, and I pray the Honduran Congress, Courts, and military stick to their guns. If someone tries to overthrow the Constitution he or she is a traitor .... "to protect the Constitution from all enemies, foreign AND domestic.....": the oath to uphold the Constitution, given by all officers of the U.S. government, and hopefully also the Honduran government as well.

    If Obama backs Zelaya on his power grab, this would be a serious attack on the stated principles of the U.S. Constitution.

    Obama impeachment???

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    Last edited: Jun 29, 2009
  7. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There is no situation in our Constitution where the military would arrest and remove a President from the country in the middle of the night. If the President of Honduras acted unconstitutionally, then it was up to their Congress to hold an impeachment vote, at which point civilians authorities would remove the president if he refused to leave. What happened in Honduras is that a democratically elected president was removed by the military. That's just not right. I believe the Honduran Constitution is modeled after ours, but am not sure how it handles impeachment. If it assigns that policing responsibility to the military, then you might have a point, but given Honduras history, I rather doubt it.
  8. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    The oath that all military and other officers representing the U.S. government says point blank that we (officers) are sworn to uphold and defend the U.S. Constitution from "all enemies, foreign and domestic", and if a person, ANY person -- including a U.S. President -- were to violate the Constitution, we are duty-bound to protect the Constitution using whatever means are necessary.

    This Zelaya guy tried legally to change the Honduran Constitution, and he was rebuffed by both the Honduran Congress and the Honduran Courts. Zelaya then tried to change the Constitution to allow himself to run for more terms than the Constitution stipulates. Thus, he has made HIMSELF an enemy of the Honduran Constitution.

    So telling that you rail on about the likes of a Pinochet, but when a Zelaya in Honduras, or a Hugo Chavez in Venezuela, or a Bolivian president, or a Daniel Ortega in Nicaragua, or a Castro in Cuba want to forcibly change the Constitutions of those nations, it's all "justified".

    Hypocrisy in full, ugly bloom. And yes, it comes from the Left.

    An impeachment would be the better way, of course. But who knows the mitigating factors. Perhaps Chavez' threats to use his military from Venezuela????


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    Last edited: Jun 29, 2009
  9. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You don't let the military replace a president. I don't like Chavez, but if the people keep voting for him, c'est la vie. When have American liberals advocated a military coup of a democratically elected president? I think that's a mostly right-wing trait, and frankly it's pretty scary. Thank god the right wing is out of power here.
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2009
  10. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    We don't know yet the reason the Honduran Congress and Courts did not go the impeachment route. When we do we can all speak more intelligently about this situation.

    This is more than a "left vs right" thing; this is a stability vs anarchy thing.



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  11. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    So if the President wants to defy the constitution and remain in office past his legal term, what should happen?

    Or does it depend on how much Castro like him???
  12. ljuneau

    ljuneau Rookie

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    Please do just a little bit of research. What you are saying is flat out not true or you are intentionaly spreading disinformation.

    You make it sound like it was just the military, while in fact it was all other branches of their government.

    Why are you defending the Honduran president who was trying to become a dictator? Oh yea, almost forgot - it's because Obama is defending him too.
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2009
  13. blackglass3

    blackglass3 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    The way it was explained to me by my friend (who's wife is Honduran) was that the President there was trying to do away with term limits. The military commanders didn't agree with that, so the president fired them and told the second and third in commands if they stay loyal to him he will give them the high paying military commander jobs. The Honduran Congress had an emergency session and had the Supreme Court there rule if it was legal, the Court said no and put the head of Congress in as interim President (there is an election in November, I believe). The head of Congress reinstated the military commanders and had the Honduran military arrest the President. Apparently the feeling amoung the citizens in Honduras was if Congress didn't stand up to the President, there was going to be a Civil War.

    Like I said, this was the way it was explained to me this morning. It sounds like it was a legit ousting, and it saves thousands of lives in the process.
  14. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    All I'm saying is that if it was done constitutionally it's fine, but I don't think it was. There is no circumstance whereby the military can remove a president in our country; there is no way the Supreme Court in our system can order the military to do something. In our country, if Obama did something criminal, he would have to be impeached. If he then refused to leave office, it would become a civil affair. The military should not have been involved especially in South America where the militaries are responsible for so many atrocities.
  15. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    About 3/5 Patters/Obama, 2/5 with the fringies on this one.


    The 2/5 comes from the unity of the rest of the country on the subject, so far as I can tell thus far. The congress and supreme court there, in addition to the military, found it necessary to act to prevent...

    and here's where the 3/5 Patters comes in...

    a referendum????

    As I understand it the referendum had all the political legitimacy of a glorified poll.

    You have to have a military coup to stop... a referendum? really?

    PFnV
  16. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    From what I read, he ran as a conservative, but once elected swung far to the left, and was highly unpopular. But, if he was so unpopular, why would anyone worry about his term limits proposal? It seems rather odd. Perhaps like Chavez and the guy from Bolivia, he's very popular among the poor and displaced?

    At any rate, my only issue is that in Honduras of all places you don't want the military taking matters into their own hands. There's too dark a history with those militaries. There is no rational for the military to be involved. If it was done legally, I think it would have been handled by civilian authorities and the president would have been arrested and put in jail, not deported. I can't find the info anywhere, but I recall reading years ago that the Honduran constitution is modeled after ours. I could, of course, be wrong about that.
  17. Leave No Doubt

    Leave No Doubt PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Clifton Ross: Coups and Constitutions

    Nikolas Kozloff: The Coup in Honduras

    Informative reads.
  18. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's not a military matter. It's a police matter.
  19. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey


    So what's the over/under that the Cheney rogues bag Obama big time on this blunder?
    I can see it now Cheney calls Pelosi and offers her a deal she can't refuse..payback is a b!tch time.
  20. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    Ah, yes, the old "progressive" vs "reactionary" dialectic. Karl Marx lives. What a pile of dung.

    There is a Constitution in Honduras. Zelaya tried to circumvent that Constitution. He should be ousted for betraying the Constitution. If he wants to change the Constitution he must do it the same way all Constitutions are changed: by the will of the governed. Instead, he chose to act as a dictator, like Castro, Chavez, and Morales in Bolivia.

    He's lucky he wasn't hanged as a traitor.


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