Holley: "Patriots aren't Merriman people..."

[Rob0729]

I was laughing earlier when you said Dansby AND Peppers...now you want to add Dumerville too?

What's happened to you?
I'm assuming you just had surgery, and are on a Morphine drip.

I know it is nearly impossible to get all of them. But contrary to popular belief, I do believe the Patriots will be a player in free agency this year.

I would be surprised if the Pats got more than one of them, but I do think the Pats need to be agressive to rebuild the LBing corp. It has been a weakness or at least not a strength of this defense since 2004 and I think it is the missing ingredient for an elite defense.

It is conceivable in an uncapped year that if the Panthers franchise Peppers that Kraft gives Belichick the go ahead to trade for him and let him play for one year and $20 something million, Dumerville would be a RFA and Belichick might sign for him with it only being a first and a third, and he might decide to pay for Dansby. The chances of all of them happening is about a billion to one, but if Kraft is desperate for a championship in an uncapped year it is possible no matter how incredibly remote it is.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

This team has to be more careful than ever about the kind of players it brings into a locker room that is short on veteran leadership and basically devoid of it on defense. The concern now is not just with off field issues, it's that they can't afford to have guys onboard who aren't team first players to whom winning football games matters more than not just money but ego. AD apparently had some concerns with his use and role from day one here. We never saw or heard that because veterans on this team sat on him and brought him into line. Holley got that from Colvin, who was one of the guys who was on AD the most. Even Richard, who was a proponent of the talent wins mantra, said in his interview last week that what wins isn't talent, it's a combination of coaching and players with the attitude that winning matters. Said that too many players coming into the league lately want the trimmings of being an NFL player rather than wanting to win. He said if he were starting a team as a GM, he would first go after the less talented guys who are driven to win.

Everybody wants to win. Unfortunately not everybody is willing to commit to it. You learn more about a guy's committment to football by watching what he does on a struggling or losing team than you do on a winning team. Guys who don't show up consistently, guys who don't take responsibity or point fingers, guys who don't honor their committment, not just to the guy writing their checks but to the guys lining up next to them, their talent is worthless because you can't count on it.

Pioli was fond of saying that this system narrows the talent pool. Never moreso than now with a defense in transition and an offense that sputtered inconsistently before it lost a guy like Welker, who was born getting it, for much if not all of the upcoming season. The offense is down to Brady and Light as three ring veterans who know what it took, and Light is in his last season. Faulk if he's extended as most assume he will be. On defense there isn't really anyone. Warren and Wilfork landed here after the system was well established and they never had to lead because they were surrounded by veteran leaders. Neither will ever be a problem and both will take care of their own business, but neither has the personality to lead by other than example. Mayo may emerge but he isn't there yet and his own injury likely impacted his development as a player and leader in 2009.

Because of Brady and Welker and Edleman who appears to have that same DNA and Faulk, I think the offense just needs to adapt the scheme to the talent level of most units and add some complimentary talent. That can be done via draft or trade or FA. The defense needs more than talent, it may need leadership more than so called elite talent. That will be the harder trick to pull off. It cannot afford to dabble in even remotely questionable charcter (or motor) guys for the forseeable future. Hopefully they have the scouting capacity to weed out the chafe and identify guys who are available not because they lack talent or drive but because they've been misused or misevaluated.

Ian really needs to bring back the rep system. :singing:

 

[Rob0729]

I love the idea of Dansby wearing the Flying Elvis. I'm very guarded in building up any hopes that they'll get him though, because it just seems pie in the sky to me right now. Even with the 2x franchise tag he's been hit with in Arizona, I have a feeling they'll get him something long term. Anything's possible though.


As for Peppers, Dumerville and Dansby... THAT would be fun to watch.

Dansby is going to test free agency if he isn't franchised again. He is upset that Arizona hasn't given him a long term deal. He will want to see what he can get on the open market.

 

[R_T26]

Dansby was franchised last year, so if he is franchised again he makes the average of the top 5 paid players in the league, so i doubt arizona wants to pay him superstar qb money.

 

[JMarr]

I dunna know. IMO the team needs to add a few more players to the core that don't have any baggage and can learn the Patriot Way from day 1. 2nd rounders are too valuable to this team right now as those players thoretically have the talent and can be taught the ways of the program from the beginning.

Any free agent that comes in needs to fit the mental and buy in to the philosophy. Merriman doesn't strike me as the type of guy that puts the team first.

Exactly. If there's a Rodney Harrison or Mike Vrabel type FA out there who could make an immediate impact, the Pats obviously need to try to get him. I don't see many defensive players like that who will be available or obtainable, so the Pats better make a slam dunk at LB in the draft or we can look forward to a proverbial "rebuilding" period (which some say we already have been in for the last couple of years )

 

[RobertWeathers]

Dansby could possibly be the best ILB the Pats have had in the Belichick era if they signed him. The guy is a stud. Yes, he had a down year, but so did every virtually Cardinal defender. Plus, he won't be 29 until midseason. He would be far more than a Ted Johnson type. If age wasn't an issue, I'd probably trade Mayo straight up for the guy.

I like Dansby. Would love to see him on the team. Hes an instant upgrade over Guyton but hes not someone I would back up the Brinks truck for.

Gotta be patient with Mayo. The guy had a bad knee last year.

Fact of the matter is that during the Super Bowl years, the Pats had a great LB corp. I think that is the missing piece of this defense. I say the Pats go balls to the wall and try to get Peppers, Dansby, and Dumerville. Doubtful they can get all three (ok, near impossible), but that is what the Pats need to be an elite team again - Great LBs.

I agree with the LBs. Need to have guys that fit in the locker room.

 

[makoute]

He sounds exactly like the kind of "character" guy the Patriots need to shape up that locker room--NOT!

How is Merriman a woman beater?

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Dansby was franchised last year, so if he is franchised again he makes the average of the top 5 paid players in the league, so i doubt arizona wants to pay him superstar qb money.

Correction: they'd owe him the franchise amount for the highest position.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I know it is nearly impossible to get all of them. But contrary to popular belief, I do believe the Patriots will be a player in free agency this year.

I would be surprised if the Pats got more than one of them, but I do think the Pats need to be agressive to rebuild the LBing corp. It has been a weakness or at least not a strength of this defense since 2004 and I think it is the missing ingredient for an elite defense.

It is conceivable in an uncapped year that if the Panthers franchise Peppers that Kraft gives Belichick the go ahead to trade for him and let him play for one year and $20 something million, Dumerville would be a RFA and Belichick might sign for him with it only being a first and a third, and he might decide to pay for Dansby. The chances of all of them happening is about a billion to one, but if Kraft is desperate for a championship in an uncapped year it is possible no matter how incredibly remote it is.

Only we all know he isn't because that's not the business model here. He has 3 Lombardi's in the case. He's been to 5 superbowls in his limited tenure as the owner - that's a trip every 3 years and a win every or less... He isn't desperate for anything. Any owner in the league would kill to be him. He's committed to remaining competitive every season and not interested in trading the future for the present. I expect them to to active, but not at the level you desire and not to the extent you envision because of the expiring CBA that follows the uncapped year. Kraft knows the cap will be back with the next CBA. That is the reason owners are united, they know the present model doesn't work. The $20M you want him to lavish on a year of Peppers (who is 30 now) could pay for Wilfork's signing bonus on a 5 year deal or Mankins guaranteed money on a 5 year deal or cover two thirds of Brady's signing/option bonus on a 6 year extension. All of which would pay better long term dividends than a year of Peppers... There are just too many variables that make going for it in any one year folly.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Ian really needs to bring back the rep system. :singing:

+1x10exp6

....p.Posting from a public library until March

 

[Rob0729]

Only we all know he isn't because that's not the business model here. He has 3 Lombardi's in the case. He's been to 5 superbowls in his limited tenure as the owner - that's a trip every 3 years and a win every or less... He isn't desperate for anything. Any owner in the league would kill to be him. He's committed to remaining competitive every season and not interested in trading the future for the present. I expect them to to active, but not at the level you desire and not to the extent you envision because of the expiring CBA that follows the uncapped year. Kraft knows the cap will be back with the next CBA. That is the reason owners are united, they know the present model doesn't work. The $20M you want him to lavish on a year of Peppers (who is 30 now) could pay for Wilfork's signing bonus on a 5 year deal or Mankins guaranteed money on a 5 year deal or cover two thirds of Brady's signing/option bonus on a 6 year extension. All of which would pay better long term dividends than a year of Peppers... There are just too many variables that make going for it in any one year folly.

Desperate isn't probably the best word for it. Again, in an uncapped year, there are things that can be done that may not be done in other years. Kraft may be willing to spend $20 million on Peppers for one year to gamble on a Super Bowl and still pay Wilfork and Mankins. Now it isn't likely, but we never know.

In an uncapped year we can to a certain extent think like Red Sox fans rather than Patriots fans. An one year $20 million deal in an uncapped year means nothing towards the cap if there is none for 2010 even if there is a new CBA in 2011. It only affects Bob Kraft's profit and loss statement. Now if they were to give Peppers a long term deal (or a short term deal) for big money, then that would be another story.

Now Kraft is a smart businessman so he probably won't throw $20 million away unless he feels he can recoupe that money in some way. So it is more dreaming than reality. But if Kraft is willing to open his wallet and give Kraft a blank check (or close to it), it will have no bearing on Wilfork or Mankins.

Don't be surprised though if the Pats do make some big one year deals to take advantage of the lack of a salary cap. I doubt it will be $20 million to Peppers, but they could give out a deal like they did to Stallworth without the bogus option years which would only be picked up if Stallworth turned into an elite player.

 

[Rob0729]

I like Dansby. Would love to see him on the team. Hes an instant upgrade over Guyton but hes not someone I would back up the Brinks truck for.

Gotta be patient with Mayo. The guy had a bad knee last year.

Not giving up on Mayo. I am high on Mayo. That was my point, as high as I am on Mayo, I think Dansby is better. Mayo is something like 5-6 years younger, so the trade would be lopsided if you factor age into the equation.

I agree with the LBs. Need to have guys that fit in the locker room.

I agree lockerroom guys are important, but just because you are a high priced free agent doesn't mean you can't be a great lockerroom guy or team leader. I don't follow the teams that most of these free agent LBs close enough to know which of the better guys are team leaders and which guys are cancers. That is Belichick and his staff's job to find out.

 

[spacecrime]

If he came here and performed well, 95% of people would love him.

???? What kind of 'if' statement is that?

It's like saying if Trevor Matich had performed well enough to bring us several 90's superbowls, we wouldn't have minded giving SF Jerry Rice for him.

Well, duh.

If Merriman was a different kind of person, not partying before a playoff game, he would be performing well and the whole situation would be different, though I sincerely doubt 95% of the people would applaud his private life. YMMV.

And of course, if Merriman was a different kind of person and performing well, SD would want to keep him and this thread would be moot.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Not giving up on Mayo. I am high on Mayo. That was my point, as high as I am on Mayo, I think Dansby is better. Mayo is something like 5-6 years younger, so the trade would be lopsided if you factor age into the equation.

No question that Dansby is better than Mayo. Next year is huge for Mayo.

I agree lockerroom guys are important, but just because you are a high priced free agent doesn't mean you can't be a great lockerroom guy or team leader. I don't follow the teams that most of these free agent LBs close enough to know which of the better guys are team leaders and which guys are cancers. That is Belichick and his staff's job to find out.

Rumor is that Dansby "gets it". Not sure about the other guys.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Desperate isn't probably the best word for it. Again, in an uncapped year, there are things that can be done that may not be done in other years. Kraft may be willing to spend $20 million on Peppers for one year to gamble on a Super Bowl and still pay Wilfork and Mankins. Now it isn't likely, but we never know.

In an uncapped year we can to a certain extent think like Red Sox fans rather than Patriots fans. An one year $20 million deal in an uncapped year means nothing towards the cap if there is none for 2010 even if there is a new CBA in 2011. It only affects Bob Kraft's profit and loss statement. Now if they were to give Peppers a long term deal (or a short term deal) for big money, then that would be another story.

Now Kraft is a smart businessman so he probably won't throw $20 million away unless he feels he can recoupe that money in some way. So it is more dreaming than reality. But if Kraft is willing to open his wallet and give Kraft a blank check (or close to it), it will have no bearing on Wilfork or Mankins.

Don't be surprised though if the Pats do make some big one year deals to take advantage of the lack of a salary cap. I doubt it will be $20 million to Peppers, but they could give out a deal like they did to Stallworth without the bogus option years which would only be picked up if Stallworth turned into an elite player.

What you fail to consider is the effect a one year $20M deal or any number of one year deals for top tier money to FA does to the salary structure of the team going forward. Brady is making $10M per on his present deal, actual take home in year 6 $6.5M. If one year of Peppers is worth $20M, what is 5 or 6 more years of Brady going to cost you. Multiply that equation by a NT and a LG and a PK and all the players yet to become FA here...

Another thing you fail to consider is the limitation Kraft faces due to revenue stream. We aren't the 'Skins, who could get away with cash over cap extravagances indefinitely - not that it mattered - because of the revenue that team and that 90,000 seat stadium generate. Kraft has wealth that extends beyond the team, unlike some owners. But he won't spent it on the team. He expects that segment of his business to cover it's own operating costs. When they don't is when you get into trouble as a business man.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Well, it is a different position, but it seems like Karlos Dansby won't be franchised. Sign him and Peppers and resign TBC and Burgess on the cheap. I think that is a better option. Granted unless the Pats open up their wallets and most likely a dream.

BTW, Peppers dogging it was the most overhyped story of the year. The guy had a bad first month (and slow stretch a few weeks later) and then turned it on and still had 10.5 sacks. You can chock part of that up to the fact the guy had no training camp or most of the preseason.

Dansby would be *awesome* for us. Hell, I like Ben Watson, but I'm still mad that we drafted him over Dansby in the first place.

 

[BradyFTW!]

???? What kind of 'if' statement is that?

It's like saying if Trevor Matich had performed well enough to bring us several 90's superbowls, we wouldn't have minded giving SF Jerry Rice for him.

Well, duh.

If Merriman was a different kind of person, not partying before a playoff game, he would be performing well and the whole situation would be different, though I sincerely doubt 95% of the people would applaud his private life. YMMV.

And of course, if Merriman was a different kind of person and performing well, SD would want to keep him and this thread would be moot.

Yup, forward-looking if statements are exactly the same as making up scenarios that never actually happened in the past.

Applaud? No. But I simply wouldn't care. I don't bother pretending that most professional athletes are good guys- if they leave it all on the field and perform, then that's good enough for me.

 

[satz]

Never understood the love for washedup players .

merriman is going to get a good contract from some one and dansby is going to the No1 on many teams list. I do not think we will win the bidding war.

Peppers has been dogging it and johnson stewart and beason went out and called him out as leaders. DE is the highest paid position so unless you want to spend 5 yr -70 million he is not coming here.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Dansby would be *awesome* for us. Hell, I like Ben Watson, but I'm still mad that we drafted him over Dansby in the first place.

I would love to see McClain (Trade our #1 in 2010 and 2011 to move up and get him) and Dansby (Free agent signing) at ILB for us next season.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I would love to see McClain (Trade our #1 in 2010 and 2011 to move up and get him) and Dansby (Free agent signing) at ILB for us next season.

Yea he looks like an absolute wrecking machine and seems like the kind of rook who can be an impact player in year 1.

Not sure about trading both 1sts though. Thats a pretty steep price to pay.