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Holding the Wolf by the Ears

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by glecco, Dec 18, 2006.

  1. glecco

    glecco On the Roster

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    Earlier I had submitted a post about a preview of the coming blame game implying that the “loss of Iraq†has it’s origin in its beginnings. I ended with a gratuitous remark that our presence there continues apparently to save face for George Bush.

    Of course there’s much more to it than that as All_Around_Brown pointed out:

    Now we find ourselves entrapped there. In time a different perspective may arise, but today it appears that there’s considerably more at stake here then there ever was in Vietnam.

    Maintaining our presence there continues to drain us of our blood and treasure, it continues to diminish our nation’s prestige, it continues to benefit the forces of Iraq’s destruction and it offers the most extreme elements of the Islamic renewal a nucleus of crystallization.

    A precipitous departure has its own set of potential hazards. All_Around_Brown alluded to this. There’s the uncertainty of what will become of the militants presently engaged by our troops. What will be the effect upon Iran, Saudi Arabia and Israel? What will come of the Shiite and Sunni conflict? The list of uncertainties is endless and we will have diminished influence on the outcome.

    We can stay and continue to feed the beast, or we can leave and free the beast to do its damage. It might have been wiser to think this out before we invaded.

    So now what?

    ---------------------------------------------
    Jefferson characterized slavery thus, "It`s like holding a wolf by the ears, you don`t want [to do it] it but you don`t dare let it go."
     
  2. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    Leaving now will certainly not be easy, but it must be done as your opening post logically leads to. The fact that it increases the threat and severity of future attacks, (unless we tend to the endless list of homeland defense neclect) more reasons exist for removing our forces from the Middle East immediately. Delay of difficult but inevitable decisions involving withdrawal from the region only puts us at more risk, IMO. At least with the wolf, you could smash its head on a rock and kill it without letting go of its ears. The mess in Iraq has no real solotion that I can imagine, except for wiping out everyone in the ME.
     
  3. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I am not a John Kerry fan, but remember his mantra, "GWB has not planned for the peace". This is telling, as time and time again there have been threads about how like minded people focused on the intent to invade Iraq and overthrow the Gov't all the while the so called "experts" on the politics of this region were dismissed. Now anyone who questions what we are doing are viewed as biased or frauds.

    I am mixed as to what should be done, but lean more towards exiting completely. It is no surprise that we are building 14 long term bases there along with the "embassy" in Iraq. We have spent too much money, too much human capitol and too much of a negative world wide image in this conflict.. It has been said if we leave it will lead to mass slaughter, but isn't that what is happening now?? I don't know, but more and more this whole thing reminds me of Viet Nam more and more every day.

    There are no good answers, and there are no great, decisive leaders who have a world and US view of how to get out of this mess.. even today Colin Powell says more troops will not help, the Joint Chiefs of Staff are divided on a course of action.. All the while George, Richard and Karl want to stay the course... It concerns me that there is no room for another strategy by the WH.
     
  4. All_Around_Brown

    All_Around_Brown In the Starting Line-Up

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    The plan now is the surge. A surge of troops will delay the inevitable, and 2007 will be more body bags arriving in Delaware at night.

    This plan is part of a change in "mission" according to some. How exactly the mission changes, its anyones guess.

    This XMas, if you're a faithful soul, say a prayer for those green replacements and the extra 30,000 troops and the stoplossed we will throw to the wolves to defend Iraqis from Iraqis.

    Bush and every neo-con should be imprisoned for getting us into this quagmire. Start with Dic Cheney.
     
  5. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I posted something a while ago that went unnoticed, but the army does not have these types of reserves nor do they have the accompanying equipment.

    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06346/745523-84.stm

    FORT STEWART, Ga. -- With just six weeks before they leave for Iraq, the 3,500 soldiers from the Third Infantry Division's First Brigade should be learning about Ramadi, the insurgent stronghold where they will spend a year.

    Many of the troops don't even know the basic ethnic makeup of the largely Sunni city. "We haven't spent as much time as I would like on learning the local culture, language, and politics -- all the stuff that takes a while to really get good at," says Lt. Col. Clifford Wheeler, who commands one of the brigade's 800-soldier units.

    Instead, the troops are learning to use equipment that commanders say they should ideally have been training with since the spring. Many soldiers only recently received their new M-4 rifles and rifle sights, which are in short supply because of an Army-wide cash crunch. Some still lack their machine guns or long-range surveillance systems, which are used to spot insurgents laying down roadside bombs. They've been told they'll pick up most of that when they get to Iraq....

    The other big strain on the Army is a shortage of people. The Army has made much of the fact that it met its recruiting goals for 2006, bringing in 80,000 soldiers. But meeting those goals has come at a heavy cost. The Army spent about $735 million on retention bonuses in 2006 to keep battle-weary troops in the service, up from about $85 million in 2003. And it had to pay about $300 million more on recruiting this year compared to the year before.

    The extra cash didn't stop the Army from having to lower standards. Although the quality of the force is still considered good, 8,500 recruits in 2006 required "moral waivers" for criminal misconduct or past drug use -- more than triple the 2,260 waivers the Army issued 10 years ago. The Army also took in more troops who scored in the bottom third on its aptitude test.

    As it has brought in more borderline recruits, the Army has found itself short of officers and sergeants. Today, it is down about 3,000 active-duty officers, a deficiency that it says will grow to about 3,700 in 2008. It is short more than 7,500 reserve and National Guard officers, according to internal Army documents.
     
  6. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The only choice is to pull out of Iraq in some sort of responsible fashion. By pulling out, we will take away the raison d'etre of the insurgents. It won't be pretty, but I think once the insurgents can no longer blame the mess in Iraq on the United States, they will come under increasing pressure to find a political solution. If we stay, the best we can hope for is to maintain the current status quo, while at the same time losing lives, prestige, and money.

    At any rate, the world community should try Bush and Blair for war crimes. They destroyed a nation and caused the deaths of tens of thousands of people, using lies to justify their mission. For the Iraqi people and state, they are worse than Saddam was.
     
  7. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Pull out, let the savages murder tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, and then "pressure" those same savages to find a political solution. Seems to be working well in Palestine & Lebanon.

    A withdrawl is not an option right now, or in the immediate future. It's not going to happen. The reason it won't happen is because it is the worst course of action and every sensible person knows it. There are benefits to staying, there are costs, and there are no guarantees. This upcoming "surge" as they like to call it, will serve one, and hopefully, two purposes. Namely, it will be done to improve the security in Bahgdad where the vast majority of violence takes place. They will be rotating IA forces into Bahgdad and embed US elements with them. This will put a local face on the forces, while also providing important oversight & communications from the US embeds. Second, I've read on some Milblogs that they are contemplating action against the Mehdi Army. A troop sruge would certainly make that feasible.

    Don't think that the Persian Gulf build up doesn't have a connection to this either. Iran is a key sponsor of Al-Sadr' Mehdi Army. The mehdi Army is a big problem in Iraq. My guess is that the recent protests in Iran of the president were CIA sponsored. When you add it up, Naval Gulf build up, troop surge, and Ajamenihad's being protested recently, one can't help but think that some action is inevitable.
     
  8. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I hope and pray that this is no more than sabre rattling, to get into a war with Iran that we do not have the manpower, equipment or heart for is a very serious mistake. Somewhere along the line there will be a need for involuntary inscription if this course of action is followed, if so that will lead to blood in the streets. As soon as Mr and Mrs middle america feel discomfort and their sons and daughters are drafted there will be outrage once again.
     
  9. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If there has to be a Draft this is how it should begin:

    Go to all of America's Prisons draft all Gang Bangers, they love violence, give them some guns tell them they will recieve a Full Pardon if they get back alive.

    Then, round up all able bodied Illegal Aliens, give them some guns, tell them they will recieve full amnesty if they get back alive.

    Send all of these people to Iraq as soon as possible, bring the troops that are there now home, turn all these Crips, Bloods, MS13's and Illegal Aliens loose on the the Iraqis and let them "go to it".

    The only problem would be how to stop all of these bastards from killing each other on the way over there.

    Can you just imagine the Gang Bangers running all over Iraq giving their "Hand Signs" :singing:
     

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