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Holder admits to lying about fast and furious...refuses to resign

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by KDPPatsfan85, Nov 15, 2011.

  1. KDPPatsfan85

    KDPPatsfan85 Rookie

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  2. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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  3. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    I can't find in the article where Holder "admits" to lying. Can you please point it out? Not saying he didn't lie. In fact, as the US atty General, I would think a headline like "Holder found to have telling the truth accurately for his entire term" to be more stunning. Your source is the equivalent of the Humboldt County Pot Party stating that the government's War on Drugs is harming cancere patients. In other words, slightly biased.
  4. KDPPatsfan85

    KDPPatsfan85 Rookie

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    There is always biasm on this forum. CNN, NBC, MSNBC, any website with liberal in it is ok here on this forum, but when its slightly biased to the right, its wrong!!
  5. The Brandon Five

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    He admits that he wasn't "accurate":

    The linked DOJ article referenced above:

    Welcome to the United States Department of Justice

    That's from April 2009. I guess math isn't part of the curriculum at Columbia Law School.
  6. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    What is "biasm" Is that an orgasm for bisexuals?

    Of course there's bias everywhere. In this case, the source and article fail to demonstrate where Holder "admits to lying". In fact, after they fail, they gcome in again and say that Holder admits to lying about something else, but again fails to show where that happened.

    You response shows that I'm right because you decided to blow off my main question.

    Also, how can Holder refuse to resign when he has never been asked to resign. Has anyone in a position to do so asked him to resign? (and you can't count yourself as one)
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2011
  7. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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  8. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ~~~Out of Order~~~ PatsFans.com Supporter

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    following this case it's hard to fathom how people knew things that he did not. These people have minions who gather all available info for them. Obama needs to force him out - I am sure there are other very qualified people to hold the job. Republicans and democrats alike want a separate investigation that will cost millions to run him out of there - do the right thing Obama - he got caught.
  9. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    You might be right. THe appearance of inpropriety is enough for Holder to get bounced. He can't do hid job at this point. Unfortunately Obama has don'e what the previous admin has done, so Holder's prolly safe.
  10. DarrylS

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    Slightly biased to the right??? Methinks you do not understand what bias means if this is slightly...

    This is a right wing blog with a definite agenda, cannot make that different.
  11. The Brandon Five

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    Is the DOJ website biased as well?

    Good grief.
  12. KDPPatsfan85

    KDPPatsfan85 Rookie

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    42 members of congress are asking holder to resign...
    Eric Holder | Call For Resignation | The Daily Caller

    As for your other question...Yes Holder did lie.

    He said that he only knew for a few weeks, but he knew much longer than that. That small detailed lie can make or break any case AND that is purgery.
  13. DarrylS

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  14. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Last edited: Nov 16, 2011
  15. wistahpatsfan

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    What is the title of this thread? The thread you titled. What does the thread title say? Where is any admission of lying?
  16. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Just another arrogant Rat
  17. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This doesn't even sound like a lie by Holder. A few weeks vs. a couple months is not much of difference, especially if someone doesn't recall the precise dates. That said, there are many reasons that Holder should resign other than Fast and Furious, for instance:

    CHART: Federal Prosecution Of Financial Fraud Is At A 20-Year Low | ThinkProgress

    Huffington Post’s Alexander Eichler reports on a new study put out by a watchdog group that finds that federal prosecution of financial fraud has now reached a 20-year low.

    [​IMG]
  18. The Brandon Five

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    April 2009 - May 2011 = a couple months?

    Attorney General Eric Holder at the Mexico/United States Arms Trafficking Conference

  19. The Brandon Five

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    That's because of the magic of Frank-Dodd. Fraud has been all but eliminated now! :rolleyes:
  20. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    As I understand it, Project Gunrunner was a broad name for a series of projects to stop our guns from getting into the wrong hands. Fast and Furious was only one program under the umbrella of Project Gunrunner. Besides, clearly the issue with Fast and Furious is the specific implementation, not the concept. The people who most likely are behind the effort to stop Fast and Furious completely are the American gun manufacturers who benefit from violence in Mexico. The pressure should be for Fast and Furious to be reigned in and redesigned. The idea of selectively providing weapons with limited functionality in order to trace them is a good one in my opinion. The problem with Fast and Furious is that there were too many weapons to monitor and some of the weapons were really quite high end.
  21. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I guess it's true what they say. Some people see only what they want to see. Had Bush implemented this plan, I'm sure you'd hate it, and rightfully so. Slap a (D) behind it and it's the cats pajamas.
  22. DarrylS

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    Bush did implement a plan that was the same.. "Operation Wide Receiver", but this case is different.. somehow:confused::confused::confused::confused:

    Both were incredibly stupid..

    Earlier ATF gun operation ‘Wide Receiver’ used same tactics as ‘Fast and Furious’ - The Washington Post

  23. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I suppose I would have opposed its implementation then as I do now, as I stated, but to me the general idea makes sense. Get a traceable weapon to a terror group in order to get greater access to the terror group. Do you think in the absence of Fast and Furious, these groups will not be able to buy weapons? Be real. But, of course, rather than respond to my point, you're just throwing out some party-line babble devoid of any insight.

    That said, I've made clear I'd be happy to see Holder go, not because of Fast and Furious, but because he's been lackadaisical in corporate prosecutions and done nothing in terms of investigating crimes of the Bush era.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2011
  24. Nikolai

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    Agreed, and a key way in which this is different is that at least one member of US law enforcement finally got killed because of this. There are other differences, but I'll get into why this whole idea is stupid in the first place below.

    In any event, people miss the point when they fail to criticize the ATF for overreaching yet again. Yet, we have Dems rationalizing this because of a complete unwillingness to disengage from the partisan paradigm. Hey, don't feel bad you guys, I'd criticize our partisan pubs for doing the same. Better?

    lulz

    Scroll to the top of the page for a reminder.

    You should read up on the facts on this one. No one would be able to buy weapons and walk out the way many were able to under this program. Do you know where the majority of weapons used in Mexican violence come from? Bonus points if you don't run to wikipedia first and then respond.

    In any event, tracing weapons to get access to a terror group (as was planned in this program) has worked in specific situations, such as the British counterinsurgency in Northern Ireland, or the Israeli occupation of the West Bank. Even then, it was extremely risky but had definitive COIN goals and targets in mind. For a situation such as this, it's the wrong tool for the trade. First of all, Mexican authorities would have to be the ones doing the tracking and putting the pieces together because they're the ones on the ground, unless we're saying that the ATF was setting up shop in Mexico and running ops without the knowledge of the Mexican police. In the examples in which this kind of thing worked, the program organizers and executors were part of an occupation and had complete access on the ground to use their assets in supporting the program. There is no indication that anything similar was going on here, and if there was direct, material support on the ground, then we've got an even bigger problem.

    Second, the geography that we're talking about is far too large and difficult to track what's going on with something like this, and anybody who is serious about running such an operation should have known that. It worked in Northern Ireland, specifically the Belfast area, and in the West Bank, but in small, confined areas, not large, expansive, mountainous regions. We're talking basic principles of COIN here that were either overlooked or ignored.

    At best, it was negligent, and at worst, it was manipulative, the ATF's sterling reputation notwithstanding.

    Funny coming from you. I make no apologies for refusing to bow at the alter of any party, including your Democrats. So, in your world, everyone is a Republican or a Democrat? :rolleyes:

    There's quite the plurality of viewpoints in this country, and many fall outside your spectrum. I'm surprised that someone as intelligent as you are has fallen into such a rut in your thinking.

    In any event, I responded to your assertions. Care to rebut?

    Perhaps, in which case, I applaud you. He's the Ashcroft of this presidency. Horrible.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2011
  25. DarrylS

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    Two were killed, how do you know if the gun came from Wider Receiver or Fast and Furious???... There is no way of tracing these guns...

    You obviously missed the comment, "both are incredibly stupid."
  26. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I was merely pointing out that during the Bush years, I never commented on the program, so your speculation as to what I would have said is baseless.

    I've already read the facts, and if you bothered to read what I wrote, I said I object to the implementation and extent of the program, not the concept. It's a sensible idea, but it was obviously poorly run.

    May I ask why you think you know what you're talking about? Are you qualified here? I assume the model you cite is a good one, but I imagine there are many other ways to do things, including GPS devices, informants within cartels, satellites to some extent, as well as Mexican authorities and American spies, and I'm not expert, so I imagine there are many other ideas as well.

    You should work for the NSA with your vast knowledge of this area. My opinion remains that the management and scope of the operation were the problems; but the concept is sound. If the goal is to get an idea of where these people operate, then the program could work in a large area even if it did not pinpoint a precise location.

    As I said from the start, it seems to be a sound idea but the ATF overextended itself and did a poor job implementing it.

    I was responding to the childish of your initial comments that simply made the claim that if Bush did it I would have sounded a different tune, based on nothing but your apparent worldview that everyone is a Republican or a Democrat!
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2011
  27. The Brandon Five

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    Wide Receiver involved working with the Mexican government and either re-capturing the weapons at the point of sale or interdicting them on the other side. Not the same. Controlled delivery vs. uncontrolled delivery.

    This kind of thing (controlled delivery) is done all the time with illegal substances.

    More Obama cheerleading from the Post. The House asked about Wide Receiver. The DOJ tried to use it to deflect.

    Eric Holder | DOJ | Fast and Furious | The Daily Caller

    Fast & Furious Was . . . Bush’s Fault - By Andrew C. McCarthy - The Corner - National Review Online
  28. DarrylS

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    And more Obama/Holder bashing by the NRO...

    Do you really think that they recovered every weapon that was part of this program?????
  29. The Brandon Five

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    More NRO/right-wing media bashing by Darryl.

    Did you even read the articles?

    Eric Holder | DOJ | Fast and Furious | The Daily Caller

    Fast & Furious Was . . . Bush’s Fault - By Andrew C. McCarthy - The Corner - National Review Online
    I guess it's not entirely your fault, after all:

    Eric Holder | DOJ | Fast and Furious | The Daily Caller

  30. DarrylS

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    The point is without the gun, and a ballistics check you do not know what gun killed these two border patrol agents..

    It could have been one that slipped by in "Wide Receiver".
    It could have been one that was let go in "Fast and Furious".
    Or it could have been a gun obtained in another way and made its way into this cartel's hands...

    You do not know where that gun came from, as you do not have the gun in question..

    To just believe that every gun that was involved in Wide Receiver was recovered is naive.. shyt happens in these operations.

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