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Hmmm. Mormons n Muslims n Jews, Oh my!

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatsFanInVa, Oct 8, 2011.

  1. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Interesting development - in defense of Mitt Romney, against the Perry-supporting preacher Mormon-bashed Romney - Bill Bennett dragged up one George Washington's words:

    -- Letter to the Hebrew Congregation in Newport, Rhode Island

    That is to say, the United States is not a Christian nation, nor a Muslim, Mormon, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. nation, but a secular nation.... having set such a "liberal and enlarged" policy and all that.

    Incredible that to the Founding Fathers, even calling religious equality "toleration" is insulting, since to them we were secularly equal regardless of religion.

    It comes up in an interesting context, the defense of one Republican against another... but interesting things happen in the Big Tent of Hate party... Rick Perry's rock, Herman Cain's Islamophobia, Perry's "rogue preacher" moment... etc.

    Puts Romney on the hook vis a vis the Republican base to extend this largess to those of other faiths, if you ask me.

    But at least we can stop this "Christian nation" nonsense once and for all. I mean, unless George Washington and the Constitution are just bad examples of what our founding fathers really meant.

    PFnV
  2. shirtsleeve

    shirtsleeve Rookie

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    "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

    Thomas Jefferson
    Jefferson's Wall of Separation Letter - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

    Oh, and
    [​IMG]
  3. patsfan13

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    Of course the invoking of
    assume the existence of a Creator from whom the Natural Rights of Man are derived, no Creator, no Natural Rights. This does no imply a secular state but the Founders were firm on the idea of the state not establishing a religion. The sort of religious bigotry that seeks to exclude Christians from the public square is a recent phenomena.


    I use the term Christian bigotry since I see that people like the ACLU support the idea of some religions being able to pray in school (Muslims for example) whereas they would not tolerate that behavior from Christians wishing to do the same thing.

    I expect people's religion of lack thereof to inform their worldview and it is certainly one of the things to consider when evaluating a candidate.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2011
  4. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't know what that meant, but you can't help but notice...

    [​IMG]
  5. shirtsleeve

    shirtsleeve Rookie

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    It meant both the obvious Wizard of Oz reference (its fall after all), and the fear is usually shared and unjustified...aka the cowardly lion.
  6. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Jug Ears Is A Baptist
  7. DarrylS

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    Interesting comments, but as usual there is more to the story.. FYI in RI they give days off for the Jewish Holidays, that just occurred in the middle of the week.. in US they give off Christmas as well.

    It will be tough for many to see the difference here, but promoting and leading prayer is much different than allowing quiet time for some to do what they want to do according to the mandates of their religion, and the wishes of their family..

    FYI the school is not leading them in prayer, just providing some time for them to take care of their religious needs...

    SignOnSanDiego.com > News > Metro -- Muslim prayers in school debated

    OVERVIEW
    The ACLU's comments..

    ACLU of San Diego & Imperial Counties: News & Events

  8. patsfan13

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    Muslims get to practice their freedom or religion in schools ie pray in schools, Christian do not.

    Spin it how you want if Christians had a prayer room or a room to gather and read biblical passages the ACLU and lib would sh*t a brick about separation of Church and State.
  9. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    So you did not read the above, and would much rather believe what the Blogs have to say.. surprise!!! Pam Geller is proud of her little non-thinking followers.

    They are not promoting religion..

    Once again the "Granny State Right" knows what is best for this school district, however the parents of the children seem relatively complacent with what is going on and are nor complaining.

    The ACLU is not the only vehicle that can be used for a complaint in the Court System, the parents can choose another attorney or advocacy group.. but they are not complaining.
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2011
  10. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    As usual....you are totally wrong: Christian students can gather to pray in schools - they just cannot have a teacher lead the prayer nor can they make it mandatory for all.

    Christian prayer in public schools: Many Americans believe that the U.S. Supreme Court banned prayer in public schools.
    They did not. The court merely declared that prayer, as an integral part of the classroom day, was unconstitutional, both because:

    It would elevate religious belief as superior to secular belief, and
    It would elevate Christianity above other religions.

    Students can:

    pray at the flagpole and at any other location outside where students area allowed to gather;

    pray silently in the hallways or classroom outside of class hours (i.e. before classes begin or after they are over;

    say grace before meals in the cafeteria;

    join with fellow student believers in forming Bible study clubs, if one or more secular, non-curriculum related clubs are also permitted;

    study comparative religion in class, as long as the course meets constitutional requirements of inclusiveness and balance;

    wear religious clothing and religious jewelry;

    initiate religious conversation during free time with fellow students as long as they do not engage in harassment.


    Christian Prayer in Public School
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2011
  11. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    And from an ACLU handbook in Pennsylvania -

    The First Amendment says that everyone in the United States has the right to practice his or her own religion, or no religion at all,
    without the interference of the government. The government is not allowed to establish an official religion, favor one religion over
    another, or favor religion over non-belief — there is a “wall of separation” between church and state.


    The Basics

    • Students have the right to practice their religion in schools, but school officials cannot force students to be religious.

    • School-sponsored events, such as sports, classroom activities, or graduation ceremonies, cannot promote religion or include prayer.

    • Religious theories cannot be taught as science.

    • Students are allowed to practice religion on their own if it does not disrupt school operations.

    • Students are allowed to organize religious groups as long as the school allows other non-curricular groups to meet.


    http://www.aclupa.org/downloads/SRH91710.pdf
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2011
  12. PatsFanInVa

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    Here we have an obvious case of "liberals would sh1t a brick if their point of view held sway," using as the template the farthest extreme of "liberals" which is really me, on this issue.

    Then the threatened establishmentarian says that liberals/the ACLU/everything bad in America has swayed all the courts to approve this standard.

    Then we get the argument that the standard does not apply to Muslims.

    What's actually happened is the establishmentarian rightist has gotten his way, as regards Jewish and Christian prayer. Now he wants to be a far-left anti-prayer type as regards Muslims, and only Muslims.

    To me, we need no more "In God we Trust" on our money, we need no National Christmas Tree, and no National Menorah. We need no more Jewish holidays off for whole school districts - Jews can stay out of school and take recorded absences. No more "Under God" in the pledge.

    I'll take all of that so long as we don't all gather before class and sing "Jesus loves the little children" and assorted other little ditties we were singing "just because it has a nice melody" as we were supposed to do when I was a kid.

    But the courts saw it your way for Jews and Christians, 13, as demonstrated in the other posts above.

    Why do you insist that they should see things my way but only for Muslims?

    It won't even help you to make up a fake passage in the Communist Manifesto that re-caps one or the other position on this one. You're picking both sides, but just applying them unevenly to different religious communities.

    PFnV
  13. DarrylS

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    Where is Orly Taitz, this is right in her backyard???

    Why doesn't she advocate on behalf of the agrieved parents??? Oh wait the parents aren't complaining.. but Geller, Spencer and the rest of the islamophobes are.
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2011

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