Welcome to PatsFans.com

Hey Michael Moore.... How about that Cuba health plan !

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by cupofjoe1962, Jan 23, 2010.

  1. cupofjoe1962

    cupofjoe1962 In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2008
    Messages:
    2,676
    Likes Received:
    49
    Ratings:
    +130 / 20 / -16

    Michael Moore - Cuba - Health Care - Medicine - Movies - Cannes - New York Times

    What Frostbite?

    Cold weather kills 26 patients at Cuban mental hospital | Washington Examiner

     
  2. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    42,766
    Likes Received:
    284
    Ratings:
    +717 / 20 / -30

    It is quite a stretch to say something that apparently works well, and a weather event is connected.. it is akin to trying to understand in this great nation with its bloated defense budget including legacy costs, why we have homeless veteran's.. something are what they are, and the dots do not connect.
     
  3. cupofjoe1962

    cupofjoe1962 In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2008
    Messages:
    2,676
    Likes Received:
    49
    Ratings:
    +130 / 20 / -16

    Losing 26 patients of hypothermia at 38.6 degrees says a lot.

    38.6 degrees is far from a Tsunami, Hurricane, Tornado, or Blizzard.
     
  4. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    42,766
    Likes Received:
    284
    Ratings:
    +717 / 20 / -30

    If you have ever traveled in tropical climes, their tolerance of cold is much different than ours.. every time I am in Mexico, when it goes below 70 degrees and there is wind.. time to break out the winter coats.
     
  5. efin98

    efin98 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Messages:
    5,066
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    You just made his point for him
     
  6. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    41,278
    Likes Received:
    255
    Ratings:
    +995 / 2 / -9

    Castro's wonderful health care should have provided free "winter coats"
     
  7. Michael

    Michael Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2004
    Messages:
    8,917
    Likes Received:
    21
    Ratings:
    +50 / 0 / -0

    #12 Jersey

    Next comes blaming the U.S.
     
  8. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    41,278
    Likes Received:
    255
    Ratings:
    +995 / 2 / -9

    Or Bush..............
     
  9. cupofjoe1962

    cupofjoe1962 In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2008
    Messages:
    2,676
    Likes Received:
    49
    Ratings:
    +130 / 20 / -16

    Last edited: Jan 23, 2010
  10. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    21,115
    Likes Received:
    417
    Ratings:
    +916 / 14 / -7

    I do understand the critique that there are not enough winter coats in Cuba, during a rare cold snap. Similarly, there are not enough indoor environments in America during cold snaps by our own standards. Therefore, of course there are more hypothermia deaths in our society. It's a colder country, so we have more chances to die of it. I don't blame America for this state of affairs, although ideally nobody would die of hypothermia. It's a preventable death.

    Michigan Investigates Freezing Death of 93-Year-Old - ABC News

    If you like anecdotal more than numerical, just read the remainder of the story.

    Oh look, more numbers:

    Description - Hypothermia - blood, body, levels, low, brain, high, test, people

    But they're homeless. That's okay, right?

    That squares well with this report...

    Goldfrank's toxicologic emergencies - Google Books

    ...which indicates 13338 died of hypothermia here from '79-'95.

    The OP seems to believe that the fact that these deaths are within a Cuban state facility proves the adequacy of American health care. It does not. It proves that it rarely gets cold in Cuba, and that the Cuban system is lame at preventing hypothermia deaths -- just as the U.S. health care system is very bad at preventing preventable deaths in general, based on more statistical (and less anecdotal) evidence.

    But cherry-pick away. We must be doing very well here at preventing preventable deaths, if some people died of cold in Cuba. :rolleyes:

    PFnV
     
  11. cupofjoe1962

    cupofjoe1962 In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2008
    Messages:
    2,676
    Likes Received:
    49
    Ratings:
    +130 / 20 / -16

    A Liberal blaming America..... Now there is a suprise.

    I guess they should have called 1-800joe4oil.

    Let me know when someone dies of hypothermia in a American hospital
    and I will let you know when an American gets in a raft in search of the
    Cuban health plan.

    I don not believe we will be talking anytime soon.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2010
  12. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    21,115
    Likes Received:
    417
    Ratings:
    +916 / 14 / -7

    A name-calling no-nothing blaming liberals for all his problems. There's a surprise.

    I specifically do not blame America. I do however say that 13,000 American deaths are a bad thing.

    Why do you want to kill Americans, right wing nut?

    That must be clever in your world.

    Let me know when American hospitals prevent preventable deaths as well as the French, and I will agree with you that American health care is not broken.

    Nice move, by the way:

    Michael Moore demonstrates that a socialist third-world nation even outperforms the U.S. in may ways.

    Your response: Let's lower the bar of the argument -- if the US health care competes well with Cuba's, it's not broken.

    Unfortunately you will continue to post your cherry-picked anecdotal nonsense here. God willing, that is the closest we'll come.

    PFnV
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2010
  13. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2009
    Messages:
    9,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    It never ceases to amaze how ridiculous the Cuba and Moore apologists will sound when trying to defend their sacred cows. :rofl: :rofl:
     
  14. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    25,370
    Likes Received:
    138
    Ratings:
    +370 / 10 / -14

    Funny we are having this conversation about Cuba and as usual the left spins for a murderer like Castro. G Beck did a show about this yesterday, you can see it here (HArry you'll love this):

    GLENBECK.COM


    The left for 70 years has rationalized the excesses of the worst killers in history, as we see today it continues.
     
  15. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    21,115
    Likes Received:
    417
    Ratings:
    +916 / 14 / -7

    You'll forgive me if your spin in favor of American deaths by hypothermia does not convince me.

    Do you cite good ol' Glen Beck to support the fact that your favorite policies are routinely killing Americans?

    By what logic do you defend the preventable deaths the American health care system allows, yet other systems do not?

    Predictably, the right blames the left... "its worst killers" indeed. You need to trot out Stalin and Castro every time you're wrong, because you know that those who truly DO love America want to improve America. And those folks are all on the left... they're the ones who don't WANT Americans to die of hypothermia.

    Those who hate America and Americans are on the right, constantly attempting to destroy the democratic character of the nation, constantly opposing the betterment of its citizenry, constantly harkening to more and more anti-democratic interpretations of the franchise and of the rights of the rank and file, constantly lobbying for the "rights" of corporations.

    More Americans die of hypothermia than Cubans. That is not surprising; we are to the north of Cuba, and both nations are in the northern hemisphere. Cuba is ill-prepared to recognize and prevent hypothermia for precisely the same reason. Yes yes, we all know where to buy cheap winter coats, but the need to have them on hand could not have been easily foreseen.

    In America, by contrast, we simply know certain members of our society will freeze to death every year.

    So what do you do? Find something to blame Cuba for.

    Let Americans die.

    Don't ever tell me you're a patriot. You don't give a damn for Americans. All you care about is whether you can try to tar Americans with your partisan brush... hypothermia deaths, whether here or there, are a joke to you, or at best a tactic.

    PFnV
     
  16. cupofjoe1962

    cupofjoe1962 In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2008
    Messages:
    2,676
    Likes Received:
    49
    Ratings:
    +130 / 20 / -16

    Your the only one name calling.... I refered to you as a liberal.
    Is that a bad thing? Am I wrong?


    Who said anything about killing Americans Roseanne Roseannadanna?


    If I need an operation.... I am going to an American Hospital....
    There may be a lot of problems with our health care system, but we
    still have the top doctors and hospitals.


    World Hospitals' ranking on the Web: Top 1000 World Ranking

    Unites States has the top 6 hospitals in the world.
    They also have 18 of the top 22 hospitals in the world.

    Frances top hospital in #27 & suprise... suprise... Cuba is not on the list.

    Let's not forget ... nobody is turned away from any emergency room in
    America (Money or no money).
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2010
  17. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    25,370
    Likes Received:
    138
    Ratings:
    +370 / 10 / -14


    You are right of course Cuba is far superior to America so is Communist China and North Korea.
     
  18. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    21,115
    Likes Received:
    417
    Ratings:
    +916 / 14 / -7

    You're unlikely to have most operations in the emergency room.

    If you are fortunate enough to get medical care in one of these six best hospitals in the world that are in the United States, and it is not ER medicine, you have very good insurance.

    However, the vast majorities of operations are the sort that even the 27th best hospital in the world can provide, evidently.

    And by giving everyone access to these hospitals, the French prevent more preventable deaths than the U.S.

    So ask yourself: Do you really get the platinum-plated Best Health Care In the World, or do the rich come to the U.S. for said care -- in addition to the well-off Americans who receive said care?

    You may get treated there if you have very good insurance, or if you have a condition that could be as well treated by the 27th best hospital in the world.

    But if you have less comprehensive and lavish insurance, or for that matter no insurance, in the US you are unlikely to get care at all.

    Our system, across the society, is not good at preventing preventable deaths. If, however, you restrict your analysis to those whose resources are most extensive, you may develop another answer to the original inquiry.

    PFnV
     
  19. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2009
    Messages:
    9,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    That is more a function of the lifestyle we Americans lead as opposed to the quality of health care. We really are an obese nation, much moreso than France (for example).

    If you have 2 hospitals, and the average patient at one hospital is 50 pounds overweight, and the average patient at the other hospital is 5 pounds overweight, then do you blame the first hospital if they have more deaths from heart disease or high blood pressure?
     
  20. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    21,115
    Likes Received:
    417
    Ratings:
    +916 / 14 / -7

    Of course, of course, no international comparisons are valid if the US doesn't "win."

    You don't improve the nation that way. You just get to accuse others of "blaming America."

    1) Obesity is one health problem. We are more Obese than the French. Your question is a serious one; establish that obesity accounts for a sizeable percentage of complications in surgery, and you have a point. I've seen studies both ways. A propos, I've also seen that being underweight -- fairly uncommon in the US -- is likely to lead to complications during longer stays, such as one finds with many more serious illnesses. It's a pretty simple problem: if you don't have body fat to fall back on, the second-best alternative is attempting to get calories and nutrients into the body at a rate
    commensurate with the demands of a body healing or fighting off a medical complication. Thin people don't do well in extended hospital stays, all feeding tubes and the like notwithstanding.

    2) ...and as to lifestyle choices in general, 27% of the French smoke daily, whereas only 17% of Americans do. Who do you think is going to recover better, the guy with full lung capacity or the pack-a-day gaulois smoker?

    Daily smokers by country. Definition, graph and map.

    All differences aside, we lag other industrialized nations in all the health care outcomes. This leaves us competing with Cuba for the booby prize.

    But what's important to us? A single news story about a single incident, so we can say "SUCK IT Cuba! You didn't have COATS!!!"

    PFnV
     

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>