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Hernandez fumble question.


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I don't know, any rule that says that wasn't a fumble is a bad rule. ....

Agreed. To me, he clearly controlled the ball and lost it in the tackling process; it was a catch and a fumble.

The whole question of when is a catch a catch came up with the Lions game — again — on a TD by Burleson.Similar to the play with CJohnson last year, except this time it was ruled a TD - which to my eyes was the right call.
 
Agreed. To me, he clearly controlled the ball and lost it in the tackling process; it was a catch and a fumble.

The whole question of when is a catch a catch came up with the Lions game — again — on a TD by Burleson.Similar to the play with CJohnson last year, except this time it was ruled a TD - which to my eyes was the right call.

But on that play, the receiver clearly took a couple of strides before going to the ground and putting the ball down out of bounds.

I'm not saying Hernandez's wasn't a fumble, I was just asking for clarification.
 
If you watch the replay, the ref threw his bean bag and his penalty flag. I would bet he thought there was a facemask penalty but then realized it was incidental.

As for the fumble, it was a fumble. The "take it to the ground" rule is different if a defender is tackling you.
 
The rule applies both in the end zone and in the field of play. There is an additional rule that applies on the side line if you go to ground in the act of completing a pass, where you must maintain it through the hitting of the ground (applies at the end line too).

They must have ruled that he was not going to the ground in the act of catching the ball, which is probably right in this case. I thought it was a completed catch and "football move" without going to ground.

I believe the "football move" stipulation has been removed.

At this point, the pass is complete when the player has control of the ball - i.e. not bobbling - and gets two feet or any other part of his body save his hands on the ground.

If, however, a player is hit or tackled by a defender in the process of making the catch, which is any point before the above conditions are met, he must maintain possession all the way to the ground for the pass to be complete. This rule applies not just on the sidelines or end-line, but anywhere on the field.

On the play in question, Hernandez isn't contacted by the defender until after the conditions for a completed pass are met -- he has clear control of the ball, and gets two feet down before he's contacted.
 
Hands to the face, esp by a defensive player is a penalty. DLs get called for it against OLs.

The "illegal use of hands" penalty doesn't to tackling the ball carrier.
 
Agreed. To me, he clearly controlled the ball and lost it in the tackling process; it was a catch and a fumble.

The whole question of when is a catch a catch came up with the Lions game — again — on a TD by Burleson.Similar to the play with CJohnson last year, except this time it was ruled a TD - which to my eyes was the right call.

The difference between the Burleson and Megatron catches is that Burleson got the ball in his hands and two feet down, satisfying the criteria for a completion, before the defender contacted him.
 
However there is a rule that if you make a 'football move' then the ball can be fumbled afterwards. But the refs have to determine that Hernandez had 'possession' first before making the football move and subsequently having it stripped.

This rule just blows my mind. I have no idea what a "football move" is and i don't think the refs do either. Outside of striking the Heisman pose, there doesn't seem to be any consistent answer here, it's a crapshoot. I've seen guys catch the ball, spin and step and it counted incomplete, then see Hernandez have it two nanoseconds and get it punched out. I did not see him make a football, or other move.

Time for a coherent rule on this deal IMO.
 
I believe the "football move" stipulation has been removed.

At this point, the pass is complete when the player has control of the ball - i.e. not bobbling - and gets two feet or any other part of his body save his hands on the ground.

If, however, a player is hit or tackled by a defender in the process of making the catch, which is any point before the above conditions are met, he must maintain possession all the way to the ground for the pass to be complete. This rule applies not just on the sidelines or end-line, but anywhere on the field.

On the play in question, Hernandez isn't contacted by the defender until after the conditions for a completed pass are met -- he has clear control of the ball, and gets two feet down before he's contacted.

Good stuff, if true. I've always hated that rule.

Also Hernandez definitely need to take his football to bed with him, Dallas was attacking the ball, but so will everyone else if Hern doesn't shape up. He's a devastating force, why wouldn't they try to exploit a weakness? Slater too. He needs to realize it's different in traffic, learn from big Vince.:D

Or BJ, to be fair. I'm not a big BJ fan, but I sure was happy to see him out there with Dallas stripping and punching at the ball. Credit where due, he's a rock.
 
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He just needs to use more stickum. :) Either that or he should be having frequent hot dates with the Jugs machine!

Or date women with bigger jugs :D

He had control of the ball but never had a chance to get it secured, I know hes fumbled a few times but this was an odd circumstance.
 
I believe the "football move" stipulation has been removed.

At this point, the pass is complete when the player has control of the ball - i.e. not bobbling - and gets two feet or any other part of his body save his hands on the ground.

If, however, a player is hit or tackled by a defender in the process of making the catch, which is any point before the above conditions are met, he must maintain possession all the way to the ground for the pass to be complete. This rule applies not just on the sidelines or end-line, but anywhere on the field.

On the play in question, Hernandez isn't contacted by the defender until after the conditions for a completed pass are met -- he has clear control of the ball, and gets two feet down before he's contacted.
You must still maintain possession as you go to the ground, if it is part of the catch.
 
The difference between the Burleson and Megatron catches is that Burleson got the ball in his hands and two feet down, satisfying the criteria for a completion, before the defender contacted him.
Actually the difference was that Johnson was going to the ground when he made the catch and hitting the ground knocked the ball out. Burleson took many steps before hitting the ground, hence, it was not part of the catch.
 
He just needs to use more stickum. :) Either that or he should be having frequent hot dates with the Jugs machine!

A date with the Jugs machine will not help him stop the fumble, it would help him catch more he has no issue with matching the catch it's what he does after that.
 
I believe the "football move" stipulation has been removed.

Sorta. The receiver no longer has to make a "football move", but he does have to maintain possession long enough "to make an act common to the game", whether or not he actually makes such an act.

On the play in question, Hernandez isn't contacted by the defender until after the conditions for a completed pass are met -- he has clear control of the ball, and gets two feet down before he's contacted.

Exactly. And had this happened in the endzone, it would have been a TD, because the second his two feet came down, the play would be over and the ball dead.

But as you say, the big difference between the Megatron and Burleson thing is the difference between going to the ground to make the catch and going to the ground after making the catch.
 
I believe the "football move" stipulation has been removed.

At this point, the pass is complete when the player has control of the ball - i.e. not bobbling - and gets two feet or any other part of his body save his hands on the ground.

If, however, a player is hit or tackled by a defender in the process of making the catch, which is any point before the above conditions are met, he must maintain possession all the way to the ground for the pass to be complete. This rule applies not just on the sidelines or end-line, but anywhere on the field.

On the play in question, Hernandez isn't contacted by the defender until after the conditions for a completed pass are met -- he has clear control of the ball, and gets two feet down before he's contacted.

The bolded part is not right, I don't believe. The rule expressly says that it doesn't matter whether or not there is contact by an opponent. You need to maintain control through the touch of the ground if you're going to ground when you are in the "act" of completing the catch. There is a separate rule about the sideline (and endline) which requires a further demonstration of possession. There also continues to be a football move requirement for catches when you're not going to the ground, but they don't call it a football move anymore -- as noted by others, they call it an "act common to the game". And, in fact, you no longer need to make a football move, but merely have time to do so.

However, the point is that the way it's supposed to be interpreted is that if you make the football move (or ACTTG), or have time to do so, then you weren't going to the ground in the act of completing the pass.

The way to think about the special rule in the sideline is this -- if you catch a ball in bounds while going to the ground but lose possession and recapture it before it touches the ground, it's a catch. However, if you do the same thing while you're going to the ground out of bounds, there was a point at which you lost control out of bounds and thus should not be awarded a catch.

Anyway, here's the whole rule. It seems odd it hasn't been posted yet in a thread this long with lots of people talking about what it says or doesn't.

COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS
Article 3 Completed or Intercepted Pass. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward
pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:
(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
(c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to
perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it,
advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).
Note 1: It is not necessary that he commit such an act, provided that he maintains control of the ball long
enough to do so.
Note 2: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of
possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession.
If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body other than his hands
to the ground, or if there is any doubt that the acts were simultaneous, it is not a catch.
Item 1: Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or
without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting
the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches
the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching
the ground, the pass is complete.
Item 2: Sideline Catches. If a player goes to the ground out-of-bounds (with or without contact by an
opponent) in the process of making a catch at the sideline, he must maintain complete and continuous
control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, or the pass is incomplete.
Item 3: End Zone Catches. If a player controls the ball while in the end zone, both feet, or any part of his body
other than his hands, must be completely on the ground before losing control, or the pass is incomplete.
OFFICIAL NFL PLAYING RULES 43
Note: In the field of play, if a catch of a forward pass has been completed, after which contact by a defender
causes the ball to become loose before the runner is down by contact, it is a fumble, and the ball
remains alive. In the end zone, the same action is a touchdown, since the receiver completed the catch
beyond the goal line prior to the loss of possession, and the ball is dead when the catch is completed.
Item 4: Ball Touches Ground. If the ball touches the ground after the player secures control of it, it is a
catch, provided that the player continues to maintain control.
Item 5: Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players
retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an
opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such
players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.
Item 6: Carried Out of Bounds. If a player, who is in possession of the ball, is held up and carried out of
bounds by an opponent before both feet or any part of his body other than his hands touches the ground
inbounds, it is a completed or intercepted pass.
INCOMPLETE PASS
Article 4 Incomplete Pass. Any forward pass (legal or illegal) is incomplete and the ball is dead
immediately if the pass strikes the ground or goes out of bounds. An incomplete pass is a loss of down,
and the ball returns to the previous spot.
Note: If there is any question whether a forward pass is complete, intercepted, or incomplete, it is to be ruled
incomplete.
 
Exactly. And had this happened in the endzone, it would have been a TD, because the second his two feet came down, the play would be over and the ball dead.

Again, the contact with the defender is not material -- whether or not there was contact, the issue is whether he was going to ground, which he wasn't in my opinion.

Also, you're right on the end zone issue because he wasn't going to ground But it's worth noting the caveat if you're going to ground out of bounds. Once possession is demonstrated with two feet or any part of the body other than a hand in the end zone, it is touchdown, since you cannot fumble in the end zone, except that is not enough if you are going to ground out of bounds. There, you must maintain your possession all the way through the ground even if you had possession with two feet or other body part as you were falling out bounds -- that's the one area where the play continues and the ball continues to be live to see whether there's a juggle through the ground OOB.
 
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