Here's How I'd Get Samuel Done

[PatsFanInVa]

Machiavellian thought of the day:

Hmmmm. He sits for 10 games. We save how much of that $7.8M? like, around $5M? Would that get pushed into next season's adjusted cap?

Oh that would just be too diabolically fitting, from the POV of team management (and as a fan, how can I not take that POV?) Expected-holdout-as-cap-manipulation.... MWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA.

Not that they'd actually DO such a thing.

PFnV

 

[g-fresh]

I do not think the Pats are being unreasonable in their trade demands. They got a first round pick for a guy who people thought was maybe a top 10 receiver, they are right to expect a lot more compensation for a guy who many people think is a top 5 corner. I believe they would let him go for less than two first round picks, but that it would take something like a first and two seconds or something similar. This talk of trading him for a second round pick is insane, his value around the league is much higher than that.

 

[BelichickFan]

Machiavellian thought of the day:

Hmmmm. He sits for 10 games. We save how much of that $7.8M? like, around $5M? Would that get pushed into next season's adjusted cap?

We've asked Miguel about that, we could move it into next year but it would require a little paper pushing with the LTBE incentive on someone's deal, it wouldn't happen automatically.

 

[PATSNUTme]

I agree with the premise of the thread. The only change I would make is this:

Agree to not franchise him and tell him that we would be looking for a first rounder if it is a division team and MIGHT not be looking for a first rounder if it's a non-division team. That way we don't paint ourselves in a corner and we start setting a standard of a player going to a division team that we play 2X per year, every year.

 

[Vern]

I do not think the Pats are being unreasonable in their trade demands. They got a first round pick for a guy who people thought was maybe a top 10 receiver, they are right to expect a lot more compensation for a guy who many people think is a top 5 corner. I believe they would let him go for less than two first round picks, but that it would take something like a first and two seconds or something similar. This talk of trading him for a second round pick is insane, his value around the league is much higher than that.

Agreed. The only way I take a second rounder, is if we get a good player AND a second rounder in exchange for Samuel.

This all comes down to the offers they get. At some point, some team is going to really want a top CB and will be willing to pay to get one (both in $ to Samuel and picks/players to the Pats). The only question is when that happens, and what the inevitable media hand wringing will be as each step plays out.

The stupidest thing I've heard is the old "whatever you do, just do it quickly" line (from Felger of course). Apparently, the intangible "distraction" of his own and his colleagues media coverage is more detrimental to the team that the extra value they get in a trade by waiting to the last minute. Reminds me of the "did you have to take the full 15 minutes" talk on draft day. Milk every last second and a Seattle type deal will appear. Since you're not getting him this year anyway, why does it matter when you make the divorce final?

And while you're milking every last second out of it, don't say a word to Samuel, other teams or anyone. Let them twist in the wind until they panic and call you to make a deal.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I think that like Branch, Samuel would not holdout if there's an agreement not to franchise him next season.

The problem is, Branch jumped right to a public demand that the Pats not franchise him the following year. The moment that becomes a public demand the Pats aren't able to "give in" to such "ransom" demands.

So in as much as both parties can come to an agreement that neither side has been publically pressured into, such a compromise is possible.

Unfortunately with Samuel's ego involved and the Patriots need to avoid setting precedents, I'm worried that common sense will not prevail.

 

[Pats726]

The Pats will not get pushed into a corner...not at all...AS wants a deal now..that is NOT going to happen with the Pats...Who really loses if it becomes close to the season starter?? My guess is that the Pats will do what they need to do to replace him (unlike with what they did with Branch..waiting) and if that happens, Samuel loses. he will get his money this year, but having not played preseason he's not going to jump right in and play....more chance of a season less than this past one..Is that a ganmble he really wishes to take??
Frankly, I think he loses if he sits out games and gambles his future money with a bad season.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

First off, what Branch was demanding and what the Pat's might consider offering Samuel are two very different things. Branch wasn't a FA, he was under contract for one more season and he was demanding they NEVER franchise him. Asante played out his rookie deal and he has been franchised. The Pat's have had their proverbial bite of the apple with Asante, they would be merely offering to forego any more bites for cooperation. Clubs agree not to franchise guys back to back in exchange for them showing up - if them showing up or possibly re-signing is what they really matters and was the reason for using the tag. If they are more concerned with securing value draft compensation on the other hand, they likely trade the guy when his stock couldn't be higher, and don't roll the dice lest he can't repeat last season and his value in trade becomes negligible.

Secondly, hell will freeze over before BB negotiates trade compensation with a player. That truly would be an ugly precedent.

Thirdly, Asante and his agent didn't just fall off the proverbial turnip truck. They gain little of value in the proposed deal. He wants to be a FA so he can cash in on his big second deal. Ideally he wants to do that this season. He may be willing to wait 'til next season for some real incentive, but since no one but franchise QB's or perhaps all pro DE's remotely warrant trading 2 first rounders, offering to trade him for 1 isn't really offering him anything.

 

[sg14]

I like the ideas being tossed around, but I have a hunch none of it happens. Any compromise is another Seymour or Branch like deal.

When the Brach deal was annouced last year you could just see the disappointment in BB's face.

BB-We draft these guys, we coach them up, we go to war with them,,we love them like our own, then they don't want to be Patriots no more. Tear my heart out why you're at it.
((Oh, bye the way the best QB in league could be a prima-donna, but,,,))


I'd bet they never do a "Branch deal again"

One guys opinion.

And just once I like to see the front office say to the player you want 'x' amount of money, then you go into the locker room and tell all 53 guys to take a paycut, then come back to us on that.

 

[BelichickFan]

Thirdly, Asante and his agent didn't just fall off the proverbial turnip truck. They gain little of value in the proposed deal. He wants to be a FA so he can cash in on his big second deal. Ideally he wants to do that this season. He may be willing to wait 'til next season for some real incentive, but since no one but franchise QB's or perhaps all pro DE's remotely warrant trading 2 first rounders, offering to trade him for 1 isn't really offering him anything.

I said a mutually agreed upon pick, I said I would take a #2. If we put his trade value as a #2 he'd get his offer unless he really pukes this year.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

This absolutely is not going to happen. How does BB and the team suddenly drop all the ill-will that festers during the 10 weeks of this prima donna holding out? Besides, Samuel will not be in football shape, his timing will be off, he'll have missed out on numerous important meetings and practices ... And how would BB justify benching whoever is the starting corner at that stage of the season, who worked hard to be where he is?

I'd like to know if any player in the NFL ever has sat out nine games in a contract dispute and come back to his starting role without missing a beat. I'll bet it's never happened.

dropping ill-will is easy. you ask yourself the question "are we better off with him?" if the answer is yes you put ill-will aside and focus on the goal of a championship.

benching the guy is easy. you tell him that he is invited to outplay Samuel if he wants to keep the job. considering the injury history of the NE secondary I don't think we have to worry about not having a position for Asante. hell install asante as a nickel back if the starter is doing a great job. Asante could be a great nickel guy and an injury replacement.

I'm not saying it's ideal, what I'm saying is that it's better than trading him for less than he's worth because Asante sat out week 1 and "we don't put up with stuff like that". If they're going to trade Asante for less than he's worth they can do that next offseason.

Basically, 6 games + playoffs of Asante plus whatever they can get for him next offseason is better than making a bad deal to get rid of him.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I think we want a deal, because we love the team, and we recognize Samuel's talent... but it seems like where we are now, we're definitely in the "playing chicken" phase of the whole circus. Again, what do I know... but it definitely looks like a second straight year of "who'll blink first," and I'll be damned if I want to sit down to a game of poker with Bill, Scott, and Kraft. I don't care what kind of a super-agent you are.

I don't see Asante getting done either, but hell, we are all outsiders. For all we know, Pioli and Asante's agent have had 25 calls on the super secret encrypted phone line, and they are both ready and willing to sign, but have to wait for 7/7/07 for reasons having to do with prophecy.

But from what it looks like? Peace between my two best friends -- a favorite player, and my favorite team -- sounds like a really good deal. Unfortunately, if those friends' interests are inimical to each other, as it appears Samuel's and the team's are, well...

{shrug}

Asante, we hardly knew ye.

PFnV

 

[spacecrime]

If he sat out to week 10 I would look for the first bookie that offered an over/under on an injury for him. Karma is a b!tch and there is a long list of folks that have held out only to come back and blow out their knee and I can't think of one person that actually sat out 10 games (while healthy).

Ogunleye did, didn't he? And Emmit Smith. There have been others, names slip me (hell to get old), but there have been enough to say holding out ten games will not cause your knee to blow out.

Also, Bruschi was out for about 10 games after his stroke and came back and played without blowing out a knee. I kow you said healthy, but does a knee know why its owner did not play ten games?

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

First off, what Branch was demanding and what the Pat's might consider offering Samuel are two very different things. Branch wasn't a FA, he was under contract for one more season and he was demanding they NEVER franchise him. Asante played out his rookie deal and he has been franchised. The Pat's have had their proverbial bite of the apple with Asante, they would be merely offering to forego any more bites for cooperation. Clubs agree not to franchise guys back to back in exchange for them showing up - if them showing up or possibly re-signing is what they really matters and was the reason for using the tag. If they are more concerned with securing value draft compensation on the other hand, they likely trade the guy when his stock couldn't be higher, and don't roll the dice lest he can't repeat last season and his value in trade becomes negligible.

Secondly, hell will freeze over before BB negotiates trade compensation with a player. That truly would be an ugly precedent.

Thirdly, Asante and his agent didn't just fall off the proverbial turnip truck. They gain little of value in the proposed deal. He wants to be a FA so he can cash in on his big second deal. Ideally he wants to do that this season. He may be willing to wait 'til next season for some real incentive, but since no one but franchise QB's or perhaps all pro DE's remotely warrant trading 2 first rounders, offering to trade him for 1 isn't really offering him anything.

Hey, some insight!

 

[patpatriot]

I think that Samuel is desperate to cash in this year somehow because playing another year can only result in 3 things, 2 of which are bad. He can replicate his performance of last year confirming his market value, he can get injured and risk never making up what he'll have to take as a free agent as a result, or last, he can reveal himself to be a mediocre player and last year's performance was a lucky fluke.

I think he's serious about reporting at week 10 because it minimizes the possibility of the 2 bad things happening.

I also think he knows that there is no way the Pats will tag him again next year because the Franchise price for CBs is likely to be too much.

 

[BelichickFan]

I also think he knows that there is no way the Pats will tag him again next year because the Franchise price for CBs is likely to be too much.

If he sits out 10 games, with a little paperwork we can move about $5M of his 2007 cap hit into 2008 which would help the chances of re-franchising him.

I think there's a good chance we'd re-franchise him, maybe not with the intent of paying him but in maintaining his rights so we can trade him.

 

[Isaac]

Re: samuel wants serious money

... they locked up koppen, light, mankins. seymour, warren. eugene wilson. all before they got into their walk years.

Mankins, Warren, and Wilson are still on their rookie deals.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Re: samuel wants serious money

The ill-will issue after 10 games out is bogus. It's fan projection, not player attitude. Players figure business is business. Were Asante to return after week 10 to fill needed depth because of inevitable injury at CB, the players on this team would be happy. By that time they're beginning to think playoffs, despite the 'one game at a time' mantra. So is BB. He'll want and need a strong DB corps to face Manning & Co.

 

[BelichickFan]

Re: samuel wants serious money

The ill-will issue after 10 games out is bogus. It's fan projection, not player attitude.

I have no problem with Samuel showing up Week 10 and us being able to push $5M into next year. Works for me. Although I'm thrilled with getting a #1 for Branch, I would have had no problem with the same thing with him - when you're looking at going deep into the playoffs there's lots of season left after Week 10.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Re: samuel wants serious money

I have no problem with Samuel showing up Week 10 and us being able to push $5M into next year. Works for me. Although I'm thrilled with getting a #1 for Branch, I would have had no problem with the same thing with him - when you're looking at going deep into the playoffs there's lots of season left after Week 10.

Exactly. It's all about the playoffs.
And post season take a #1 or more likely #2 for him in the 2008 draft and use the cap money to sign another 2 upper tier FAs.