Heard that Asante WILL be franchised....

[shirtsleeve]

I am actually re-thinking my position on tagging samuel. If both Asante and Graham aren't going to sign extensions, I would rather tag Graham because it'll only cost a bit more than 4 million. The reason for this, and yes i know it's a bit risky is that I don't think there really is anyone out there who is willing to pay him the 7+ million Asante will be due after being franchised.

While we also know that people like Dan Snyder are out there, I don't think anyone think's Samuel is one of the top 10 corners in this league. I'd take my chances by negotiating with him without the tag, which is his and his agent's preference anyway and try to match the highest offer out there.

The danger here is that the highest offer may be too much for us and he would walk out of here with us getting nothing in return. But the 7+ million he would make if tagged, is in my opinion, too much for us to pay anyway with the way our salary cap is spread out a lot more than most teams.

I do not disagree with the thought of his value to the team. But if you think he is worth around 5 mil as a good but not great corner, then its toe tag time! There has been a pay raise in the league. And 7 is easily the new 5. Especially at corner. ~800K is about all he will be "overpaid" by us if we cannot deal him before the tender date. There are teams that have been pointed out else where that need corners and dont mind paying. Oh, and judging by PViV's stats, yeah, he's approaching top 10 status, maybe not top 5, but his growth in all areas has been steady and consistent, which led to this bust out year, and indicates further growth is not only possible but expected. Sort of like big Sey and Warren.

But this thread has digressed. I was still wondering who broke that story yesterday and if it was repeated anywhere today.

 

[shirtsleeve]

No we can't. We can keep him here if we want. That is all we control. If he goes, we cannot control where he goes.

There is no way we can send him to the NFC or a crappy AFC team as you claim if he wants to go to the Jets and play for Mangini.

The most we could do is give him $8 mil to make him wait a year and then let him go to the Jets.

"Hmmm...Mr. Mangina, Mr Samuel has been franchised so we would be willing to trade him for 2 #1 draft picks and Johnathan Vilma."

"Hmmm...Mr. Bidwell, Mr. Samuel has been franchised so we would be willing to trade him for a #2 this year and a #3 next....."

 

[Brady'sButtBoy]

Interesting talk here about trading Samuel but I still think he'd be franchised to be kept in NE, especially when considering PFIV's insightful dissection of how near future franchise numbers will affected by the crazy sigings all this extra space will generate.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned and I'm not sure of -

Usually trading a player creates a pretty sizeable cap hit for a team. If after franchising Samuel at $7.8mil would we have to absorb the cap hit for most of that number since it's a guaranteed contract? If so, that would make a stronger case against franchising Asante, and certainly a stronger case against the franchise then trade idea.

 

[Oswlek]

Interesting talk here about trading Samuel but I still think he'd be franchised to be kept in NE, especially when considering PFIV's insightful dissection of how near future franchise numbers will affected by the crazy sigings all this extra space will generate.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned and I'm not sure of -

Usually trading a player creates a pretty sizeable cap hit for a team. If after franchising Samuel at $7.8mil would we have to absorb the cap hit for most of that number since it's a guaranteed contract? If so, that would make a stronger case against franchising Asante, and certainly a stronger case against the franchise then trade idea.

Trading Asante would have no cap hit because there is no bonus entailed in the tag, it is all salary.

 

[Armen Da Pats Fan]

Have a hard time believing this, the only reason I can see franchising him is to give more time to work out details... if they are not close to finalizing a contract do not see them tying up that much money. 7.79 is a lot of cash and will mess up their salary structure, what will the effect on the other 52 players??

The Pats aren't really big on franchising a player for some reason...I think it's a great tool to leverage talent.

That said, I cannot recall a time when they did it, except for maybe AV. Didn't they franchise him once and then work out a deal?

 

[dhamz]

The reason for this, and yes i know it's a bit risky is that I don't think there really is anyone out there who is willing to pay him the 7+ million Asante will be due after being franchised.

While we also know that people like Dan Snyder are out there, I don't think anyone think's Samuel is one of the top 10 corners in this league.

I don't think Samuel is one of the top 10 corners in the league but that is irrelevant.

Most people put him as the #2 CB on the free agent market and with every team having money to spend he is a lock to get a signing bonus in double digits.

The smart move is to tag him and then decide if the value is in keeping him for 1 year or letting him explore his trade options.

 

[SCPatBoy]

The reason for this, and yes i know it's a bit risky is that I don't think there really is anyone out there who is willing to pay him the 7+ million Asante will be due after being franchised.

While we also know that people like Dan Snyder are out there, I don't think anyone think's Samuel is one of the top 10 corners in this league.

I don't think Samuel is one of the top 10 corners in the league but that is irrelevant.

Most people put him as the #2 CB on the free agent market and with every team having money to spend he is a lock to get a signing bonus in double digits.

The smart move is to tag him and then decide if the value is in keeping him for 1 year or letting him explore his trade options.

Go ahead and list for me 10 Corners in th eleague who are better then Samuel right now...Not going off of play 2 years ago...right now.

 

[JackBauer]

Go ahead and list for me 10 Corners in th eleague who are better then Samuel right now...Not going off of play 2 years ago...right now.

He can't. Because there are, as far as I can tell, only two CBs that can be said are definately better than Samuel is right now.

 

[DaBruinz]

We can control where he goes. Because he can't go anywhere unless we agree. He has to stay for a year unless we let him go. If we wanted we could Franchise him again, admittedly for over $9M the second time. But we could do it.

This is only partially true. If the Patriots Franchise Asante, he can still negotiate with other teams and the Pats have NO SAY in it. The only say they would have is if the team wanting to sign Asante didn't want to pay the 2-1st round picks, like New Orleans didn't for Tebucky Jones. The Patriots could say that they would only accept 2 1st round picks from the team as compensation, but if they accepted less from another team, they would be viewed as not negotiating in good faith and could be penalized. Only if Asante signs the Franchise tag contract would he be bound to the Patriots.

Now, about the Tebucky Jones signing by New Orleans. Tebucky was not traded to New Orleans. He was signed by them. However, the Pats and New Orleans decided that proper compensation was the package of picks that the Pats received and not 2-1st rounders. The media pundits didn't understand this so they called it a "TRADE".

The compensation would be 2 1st round picks IF the teams couldn't work out a suitable compensation package. I believe that there is a set amount of time to work out the compensation or it defaults to the 2 1st round picks.

 

[Triumph]

We really can't control where he goes. He would have to agree to a contract witht he team before the trade or they would never give a pick for an unsigned player.

Also, we can only trade him if he does not sign the tender, if I recall the Tebucky trade correctly. If he signs the tender, i don't think we can trade him.

Either way, we cannot control where he goes, unless he agrees.

Yes, NE can control where he goes.

For example, assuming 3 teams offered a salary package to Samuels liking.The price for the Jets could be 1 first round pick, but the price for Broncos or Browns could be 1 second round pick or lower to move him out of the AFCE.

 

[BelichickFan]

This is only partially true. If the Patriots Franchise Asante, he can still negotiate with other teams and the Pats have NO SAY in it. The only say they would have is if the team wanting to sign Asante didn't want to pay the 2-1st round picks, like New Orleans didn't for Tebucky Jones. The Patriots could say that they would only accept 2 1st round picks from the team as compensation, but if they accepted less from another team, they would be viewed as not negotiating in good faith and could be penalized. Only if Asante signs the Franchise tag contract would he be bound to the Patriots.

Now, about the Tebucky Jones signing by New Orleans. Tebucky was not traded to New Orleans. He was signed by them. However, the Pats and New Orleans decided that proper compensation was the package of picks that the Pats received and not 2-1st rounders. The media pundits didn't understand this so they called it a "TRADE".

The compensation would be 2 1st round picks IF the teams couldn't work out a suitable compensation package. I believe that there is a set amount of time to work out the compensation or it defaults to the 2 1st round picks.

You're right - but two #1s is so far fetched over real value that I don't even consider it. Do we have no control over him going to the Jets for compensation of two #1s ? Yes, we have no control.

But if we got two #1s for Samuel (we'd have 3 #1s this year and 2 next year total), we'd all say Samuel Who so fast it wouldn't be funny.

 

[DaBruinz]

Go ahead and list for me 10 Corners in th eleague who are better then Samuel right now...Not going off of play 2 years ago...right now.

Nate Clements, Fred Smoot, Champ Bailey, Ty Law, Charles Woodson, Dunta Robinson, Chris McCallister, Lito Shepard, Samari Rolle, D'Angelo Hall, Antoine Winfield. Cases could be made for Asamougha from the Raiders and Pacman Jones from the Titans as well, though they are probably even or a step behind Samuel.

Asante is NOT a strong tackler. Its hit or miss as to whether he wraps up. He relies on his hitting ability to knock players off their feet. I feel he's not great in press coverage and its one reason why the Pats play a ZONE coverage. Asante doesn't go up and out-muscle WRs very often. He times things so that he gets the interception clean, but if he misses, the WR is gone.

Teams are NOT afraid of Samuel. Its why they go after him so often.

Also, Samuel has benefitted, majorly, from the pressure that the Pats Pass Rush puts on. At least 5 of the Ints that Asante made were on "DUCKS" (floaters because of the pass rush) to his side of the field.

 

[DaBruinz]

You're right - but two #1s is so far fetched over real value that I don't even consider it. Do we have no control over him going to the Jets for compensation of two #1s ? Yes, we have no control.

But if we got two #1s for Samuel (we'd have 3 #1s this year and 2 next year total), we'd all say Samuel Who so fast it wouldn't be funny.

I agree, we would be like that. Personally, I think that Samuel is a better free safety than a cornerback because of his hitting ability.

I'd LOVE to keep Asante in a Pats uniform. Its why I have said that the Pats should offer him a 6yr/$40 million deal with a 10 million signing bonus at the absolute most.

 

[Oswlek]

Nate Clements, Fred Smoot, Champ Bailey, Ty Law, Charles Woodson, Dunta Robinson, Chris McCallister, Lito Shepard, Samari Rolle, D'Angelo Hall, Antoine Winfield. Cases could be made for Asamougha from the Raiders and Pacman Jones from the Titans as well, though they are probably even or a step behind Samuel.

Asante is NOT a strong tackler. Its hit or miss as to whether he wraps up. He relies on his hitting ability to knock players off their feet. I feel he's not great in press coverage and its one reason why the Pats play a ZONE coverage. Asante doesn't go up and out-muscle WRs very often. He times things so that he gets the interception clean, but if he misses, the WR is gone.

Teams are NOT afraid of Samuel. Its why they go after him so often.

Also, Samuel has benefitted, majorly, from the pressure that the Pats Pass Rush puts on. At least 5 of the Ints that Asante made were on "DUCKS" (floaters because of the pass rush) to his side of the field.

Samuel is better than the bolded names. He is much better in run support than you give him credit for and teams *did* go away from him, including the Colts. Also, NE's pressure was good, not great this year. I see no reason to categorically lessen the value of his ints just because they were pressure enhanced. Almost every CB in the leage benefits from the same thing.

The biggest hole in Samuel's game is that he gives up long plays that he could easily break up because he goes for the int and comes up enpty.

 

[Amnorix]

IMHO it's a no-brainer to franchise him. The salary cap numbers took a huge leap last year, but that number isn't YET reflected fully in this year's franchise tag numbers. As a percentage of the cap, therefore, all franchise tags are a bit low.

IMHO it makes too much sense to tag either Graham or Samuel and trade him, if we dont' really want to pay it. Can't tag both, but pick whomever you think represents the better value or that you're more worried about losing in an uncontrolled manner.

 

[JackBauer]

Nate Clements, Fred Smoot, Champ Bailey, Ty Law, Charles Woodson, Dunta Robinson, Chris McCallister, Lito Shepard, Samari Rolle, D'Angelo Hall, Antoine Winfield. Cases could be made for Asamougha from the Raiders and Pacman Jones from the Titans as well, though they are probably even or a step behind Samuel.

We agree on a lot of things (i.e. Caldwell earlier this year), but I think you are WAY off-base here. This would be my ranking:

Better than Samuel:

Bailey
McAlister

Comparable to Samuel:

Mathis
Asomugha
Harris (GB)

Just behind or on the decline:

Winfield
Law

Clements rebounded well from his dismal 2005 campaign, but didn't make as many big plays as Samuel. Smoot just isn't very good. Woodson is pretty good, but not on the same level (IMO). Robinson, as far as what I can tell and what I have read, has not reached the next level as expected. Rolle? Are you serious? (I hope not). Ditto Hall. Pacman Jones is someone I would list as "up and coming" if he can manage to keep his head screwed on tight enough.

At worse, you can say Samuel is the #6 CB in the league. Personally, I would put him at #3/#4 (and he'll probably only get better, as, IIRC, he's only 26).

Teams are NOT afraid of Samuel. Its why they go after him so often.

Huh? This is simply false.

I agree, we would be like that. Personally, I think that Samuel is a better free safety than a cornerback because of his hitting ability.

Asante is NOT a strong tackler. Its hit or miss as to whether he wraps up. He relies on his hitting ability to knock players off their feet..

What?

 

[patchick]

Controlling a sought-after player's rights is valuable. You HAVE to franchise him because it guarantees you one of three benefits:

A. a plug-in starting corner on a low-risk one-year contract...requiring another "contract year performance";

B. attractive compensation from another team that wants to sign him to a long-term deal;

C. the right to match the aforementioned deal, or use it as the basis for negotiating your own long-term deal.

I actually think there's a decent chance of C coming through. If I were Asante, even if I hoped to stay with the Patriots I would have waited for the offseason to let the overheated market set the price.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

Nate Clements, Fred Smoot, Champ Bailey, Ty Law, Charles Woodson, Dunta Robinson, Chris McCallister, Lito Shepard, Samari Rolle, D'Angelo Hall, Antoine Winfield. Cases could be made for Asamougha from the Raiders and Pacman Jones from the Titans as well, though they are probably even or a step behind Samuel.

Asante is NOT a strong tackler. Its hit or miss as to whether he wraps up. He relies on his hitting ability to knock players off their feet. I feel he's not great in press coverage and its one reason why the Pats play a ZONE coverage. Asante doesn't go up and out-muscle WRs very often. He times things so that he gets the interception clean, but if he misses, the WR is gone.

Teams are NOT afraid of Samuel. Its why they go after him so often.

Also, Samuel has benefitted, majorly, from the pressure that the Pats Pass Rush puts on. At least 5 of the Ints that Asante made were on "DUCKS" (floaters because of the pass rush) to his side of the field.

You are forgetting Marcus Trufant (6th overall draftpick). The only guy who can cover worth a damn for the Seahawks.

 

[SCPatBoy]

Nate Clements, Fred Smoot, Champ Bailey, Ty Law, Charles Woodson, Dunta Robinson, Chris McCallister, Lito Shepard, Samari Rolle, D'Angelo Hall, Antoine Winfield. Cases could be made for Asamougha from the Raiders and Pacman Jones from the Titans as well, though they are probably even or a step behind Samuel.

Asante is NOT a strong tackler. Its hit or miss as to whether he wraps up. He relies on his hitting ability to knock players off their feet. I feel he's not great in press coverage and its one reason why the Pats play a ZONE coverage. Asante doesn't go up and out-muscle WRs very often. He times things so that he gets the interception clean, but if he misses, the WR is gone.

Teams are NOT afraid of Samuel. Its why they go after him so often.

Also, Samuel has benefitted, majorly, from the pressure that the Pats Pass Rush puts on. At least 5 of the Ints that Asante made were on "DUCKS" (floaters because of the pass rush) to his side of the field.

Come on...Ty Law right Now...I don't think so...Fred Smoot....nope. I wouldn't trade for Samari Rolle or D'Angelo Hall right now either......There is no way you would get a poll of unbiased fans or football experts to say that 70% of who you listed is decidely better then Asante right now!

 

[DaBruinz]

Come on...Ty Law right Now...I don't think so...Fred Smoot....nope. I wouldn't trade for Samari Rolle or D'Angelo Hall right now either......There is no way you would get a poll of unbiased fans or football experts to say that 70% of who you listed is decidely better then Asante right now!

You are entitled to your opinion. However, I think you don't have clue as to what you are talking about. Did you watch any game OTHER than the one's Patriots played in?

Too many people on this board SERIOUSLY over-rate Samuel. What is amazing is that prior to the start of the season 75% of this board felt that Samuel was a solid #2 but nothing more. And, honestly, he did NOT show me that he improved enough in his coverage abilities or his tackling to merit being considered ELITE or even in the top 10.

OH, BTW, if Ty Law wasn't better than Samuel, why were the Pats trying to bring Law back as the #1 CB for this team? Think about that.