Has the NFL caught up with Belichick?

[PushnPencils]

You can't be serious.

I have no problem at all with fans with relatively little knowledge about the game of football commenting on a forum such as this one; in fact I would encourage all such fans to comment and ask questions.

But for you to turn around and pat yourself on the back as if your so called doom-and-gloom evaluations have been more well thought out, intelligent and logical than those that others offer is flat out ridiculous. The majority of your evaluations have been proven to be wrong, in spite of the final score of today's game.

In the meantime, get some ice on that shoulder of yours Nostradamus.

...and more importantly....am I to assume that you are one the the enlightened one's on here...talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

 

[The_Riddler]

and I would assume that the logical thing to do following that line of thought is to trade up for dominant pass rushers?

How about we just start by sitting tight ? Not trading down twice in a draft and actually avoiding Clay Matthews not once, but twice ! Yes, he passed on him twice. Would not have even required a trade up. I could see if it wasn't a need, but the real head scratcher was that was what we exactly needed and he passed on that twice !

The 2's and 3's that we've pissed through over these last 4 years is unreal !

 

[RayClay]

Ok,

Tomlin, McCarthy, Payton, Ryan, Harbaugh

Last two years

Belichick 24-8
Payton 24-8
Harbaugh 21-11
McCarthy 21-11
Tomlin 21-11
* = Career
*Ryan 20-12

3 years

Belichick 35-13
*Harbaugh 32-16

4 years

Belichick 51-13
*Tomlin 43-21

5 years

Belichick 63-17
*Payton 49-31
*McCarthy 48-32

10 years

Belichick 3 Super Bowl championships, zero losing or even seasons, ****loads of wins

2 zero
3 zero
4 zero
5 zero
6 zero

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

Ummm, I was at the game today, and I coulda sworn that BB was on the sideline as the offense (TFB) threw 4 picks .........

You are just not going to win game by doing that.......... no matter what your head coach has done.

 

[DonBlackmon55]

and I would assume that the logical thing to do following that line of thought is to trade up for dominant pass rushers?

Ummm. logical thing to do would be when you have a good player available, at you spot take him instead of trying to outsmart yourself by adding more picks..

 

[jays52]

How about we just start by sitting tight ? Not trading down twice in a draft and actually avoiding Clay Matthews not once, but twice ! Yes, he passed on him twice. Would not have even required a trade up. I could see if it wasn't a need, but the real head scratcher was that was what we exactly needed and he passed on that twice !

The 2's and 3's that we've pissed through over these last 4 years is unreal !

The Clay Matthews thing is old dude. Without even getting into how he would be, at best, a situational sub rusher here, lots of other teams passed on him as well. The fact of the matter is that this coach turned over an entire roster in two offseasons. Think about that. Yes, absolutely there were misses, but trading down also garnered Gronk, McCourty, Dowling, Vollmer, Solder, and a host of other players. The hit rate in the first round isn't all that great, and the general rule is if you nail your 1st pick each season you're doing a damn good job. Further, the trading down has continually loaded this team with assets year after year after year. That is truly masterful, and if you don't buy my argument look at what pick volume has historically created. It's how dynasties are built, and there were many misses on those teams as well. It is unpopular to most fans but the data supports it as the best strategy.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Belichick is the most overrated defensive mind in football. Every single year we hear about how great he is and how he's the best in the business from a scheme standpoint on defense.

BS. If that were true then this team wouldn't have to rely on Tom Brady to throw for 400 yards and never turn the ball over to win. If that were true then this team would have somewhat of an adequate defense or an adequate pass rush. If that were true then this team would not be the worst pass defense in the league for 2 years running.

The fact of the matter is Belichick is alleged to be this defensive mastermind. Yet, when was the last time the Pats won a game due to his great defense or great gameplan? The Patriots have become the Colts. 100% reliant on their QB. Brady plays average or below average, and this team loses. Belichick's defense can't stop a god damn nose bleed.

And the ironic thing is, all those years when the Colts would come up short and lose to us, all of you fans would absolutely rip Tony Dungy. How can you say you're a well-respected defensive mind when you rely solely on your offense and QB to win you games? You'd all rip Dungy for being a garbage coach and being the beneficiary of Peyton Manning's greatness.

Well now that's what Belichick has become -- a beneficiary of Tom Brady's greatness. He has had a top 5 offense and bottom 5 defense. Last year he had the best offense in the league and one of the worst pass defenses and third down defense in the league. But god forbid anyone criticize Belichick for the way his defenses have played over the last few years. It's hypocrisy at its finest. Did you honestly ever think you'd be asking yourself if this team could win a super bowl IN SPITE of a Belichick-coached defense?

New year, same problems. O-Line average. No real running game. Garbage defense. Sounds a lot like the Colts to me.

You want to blame it on personnel, then fine. That's Bill's fault too. Value-based, trading down approach that has netted more Wheatleys, Butlers, Crables, Tates, and Ron Braces than it has Chungs, Gronkowskis, and Vollmers. Or how about refusing to draft and develop an heir apparent to Seymour? Or how about never drafting and developing an edge rusher a la Orakpo or Clay Matthews?

That's what you get when you think you're smarter than everyone else, when you think your system is superior to everyone else, your draft strategies and value-based system is superior to everyone else, your coaching staff can coach up anyone.

 

[PushnPencils]

Belichick is the most overrated defensive mind in football. Every single year we hear about how great he is and how he's the best in the business from a scheme standpoint on defense.

BS. If that were true then this team wouldn't have to rely on Tom Brady to throw for 400 yards and never turn the ball over to win. If that were true then this team would have somewhat of an adequate defense or an adequate pass rush. If that were true then this team would not be the worst pass defense in the league for 2 years running.

The fact of the matter is Belichick is alleged to be this defensive mastermind. Yet, when was the last time the Pats won a game due to his great defense or great gameplan? The Patriots have become the Colts. 100% reliant on their QB. Brady plays average or below average, and this team loses.

Belichick's defense can't stop a god damn nose bleed.

And the ironic thing is, all those years when the Colts would come up short and lose to us, all of you fans would absolutely rip Tony Dungy. How can you say you're a well-respected defensive mind when you rely solely on your offense and QB to win you games? You'd all rip Dungy for being a garbage coach and being the beneficiary of Peyton Manning's greatness.

Well now that's what Belichick has become -- a beneficiary of Tom Brady's greatness. He has had a top 5 offense and bottom 5 defense. Last year he had the best offense in the league and one of the worst pass defenses and third down defense in the league. But god forbid anyone criticize Belichick for the way his defenses have played over the last few years. It's hypocrisy at its
finest. Did you honestly ever think you'd be asking yourself if this team could win a super bowl IN
SPITE of a Belichick-coached defense?

New year, same problems. O-Line average. No real running game. Garbage defense. Sounds a lot like the Colts to me.

You want to blame it on personnel, then fine. That's Bill's fault too. Value-based, trading down approach that has netted more Wheatleys, Butlers, Crables, Tates, and Ron Braces than it has Chungs, Gronkowskis, and Vollmers. Or how about refusing to draft and develop an heir apparent to
Seymour? Or how about never drafting and developing an edge rusher a la Orakpo or Clay Matthews?

That's what you get when you think you're smarter than everyone else, when you think your system is superior to everyone else, your draft strategies and value-based system is superior to everyone else, your coaching staff can coach up anyone.

Not that I totally disagree but you might wanna change your screen name.

 

[TomPatriot]

I never thought I'd read a post like this and find myself agreeing with a lot of it, but here I sit and that's exactly what happened. I just don't understand it. Have you all seen Kerigan? How about Clay in GB? It's so annoying. I just don't get it anymore. All I keep hearing about is how much of a genius BB is, but the defense has been near the bottom in almost everything for the past three or so years. It's pathetic.

If you follow the trail of the 2009 trade the Pats wound up with a pretty good player named Gronkowski.

 

[Mike in 333]

I think it's legitimate to question why our DB's typically show promise in their rookie seasons and then fail to improve or regress after that. A good coaching staff should be able to get continual improvement out of a player and yet if you look at the revolving door of once promising players who are no longer with us something doesn't add up. Is it our scheme? Is it coaching? Were these guys hiding their flaws as rookies? I can't think of any young player who has thrived and grown as a CB or Safety (possible exception is Chung but it's still early) in many years.

 

[TomPatriot]

heh, Merriweather was anything but a top coverage saftey. I will give you Sanders but Merriweather frustrated the heck out of me with the poor tackling and angles he always took.

Neither Meriweather nor Sanders is a starting safety in the NFL and they play for teams with a combined 2-4 record.

They're not here because Barrett and Brown were superior players in training camp.

 

[BendButDontBreak37]

This is a pretty legitimate and accurate writeup, though you'll be killed for it. Some here follow the IBWT philosophy blindly and completely ignore the eye test. Of course Belichick is a good coach, but I think it's fAir to criticize him when he is too stubborn to adjust his schemes when they fail to be effective for multiple years running.

More than anything, it's frustrating to bring in lower level talent that appears to be uncoachable in some cases or just not good enough in others. Ok, yes, we passed on Matthews. We'll live. But we have traded down too many times. And even though some of these moves down have given us the Gronks, they have more often than not given us the wheatleys. Belichick really needs to be more flexible in his approach, or allow some others some more power in the defensive coordinating or talent aqcuisition.

 

[The_Riddler]

The Clay Matthews thing is old dude. Without even getting into how he would be, at best, a situational sub rusher here, lots of other teams passed on him as well. The fact of the matter is that this coach turned over an entire roster in two offseasons. Think about that. Yes, absolutely there were misses, but trading down also garnered Gronk, McCourty, Dowling, Vollmer, Solder, and a host of other players. The hit rate in the first round isn't all that great, and the general rule is if you nail your 1st pick each season you're doing a damn good job. Further, the trading down has continually loaded this team with assets year after year after year. That is truly masterful, and if you don't buy my argument look at what pick volume has historically created. It's how dynasties are built, and there were many misses on those teams as well. It is unpopular to most fans but the data supports it as the best strategy.

Dude, I got news for ya, Clay Matthews will never get old. It gets old to those who want to forgot about what a huge effin mistake it was, but it will never get old with alot of other people that watched that kid literally be the 2nd most valuable football player on that Packer team that helped them win a Lombardi and he's not done yet, kid is just getting started. It will never, ever get old, it was a blunder beyond belief, although some want to play ostrich on it, and just stick their heads in the sand about it. Too much pride I guess to admit that Mr. Perfect BB actually outsmarted himself.

Dynasties are built on trade downs? Interesting, are you referring to the 1980's Niners or the 1990's Cowboys ? Ah my good friend, those teams didn't deal down, they stayed pat and drafted player makers. Aikman, Irvin and Rice didn't come from deal downs my friend, they were drafted at their normal slots and in some cases as in Rice (A trade up, yes, a trade up) yielded the greatest WR to ever put on football pads. Not sure where you get this Dyanasties are built on trade downs, I haven't seen any proof of it, can you help me out ?

 

[jays52]

Dude, I got news for ya, Clay Matthews will never get old. It gets old to those who want to forgot about what a huge effin mistake it was, but it will never get old with alot of other people that watched that kid literally be the 2nd most valuable football player on that Packer team that helped them win a Lombardi and he's not done yet, kid is just getting started. It will never, ever get old, it was a blunder beyond belief, although some want to play ostrich on it, and just stick their heads in the sand about it. Too much pride I guess to admit that Mr. Perfect BB actually outsmarted himself.

Dynasties are built on trade downs? Interesting, are you referring to the 1980's Niners or the 1990's Cowboys ? Ah my good friend, those teams didn't deal down, they stayed pat and drafted player makers. Aikman, Irvin and Rice didn't come from deal downs my friend, they were drafted at their normal slots and in some cases as in Rice (A trade up, yes, a trade up) yielded the greatest WR to ever put on football pads. Not sure where you get this Dyanasties are built on trade downs, I haven't seen any proof of it, can you help me out ?

Decaf man. Have you forgiven the Pats for passing on Rice yet? I'm not going to argue the Matthews thing with you because there's no point. I could lay down the most eloquent, fact based post and you would just scream louder. There's no point. I also didn't say trade downs, I said pick volume. There's a difference. Relax my friend.

 

[DonBlackmon55]

How about we just start by sitting tight ? Not trading down twice in a draft and actually avoiding Clay Matthews not once, but twice ! Yes, he passed on him twice. Would not have even required a trade up. I could see if it wasn't a need, but the real head scratcher was that was what we exactly needed and he passed on that twice !

The 2's and 3's that we've pissed through over these last 4 years is unreal !

Let's see

2004: Having passed on Stephen Jackson, took Wilfork who fell in the draft.... then could have added Karlos Dansby with 2nd #1. Everyone was looking for LB to help the D. Nope we'll take another TE, Ben Watson, when we had Graham already. Followed by Marquise Hill(RIP) - Rd 2 bust

2005: Makins9hit), followed by Hobbs in Rd 3(ugh)

2006: traded down for Maroney(bust). then traded up in rd 2 for chad Jackson(total Bust). Then, rd 3 &4 picks TE in each - both busts. LOL So, Graham, Watson, Thomas, Mills.

2007: Merriwhether(gone). Yea who needs a 3-4LB like Lamarr Woodley with 2nd #1 pick, or even trade down. But we get a nice DT in Kareem "dont call me Abdul Jabbar" Brown

2008: Wheatly and Crable, K. Oconnell, Wilhite - busts galore

2009 : Passes on clay Matthews when infact LB was a need. Patrick Chung(TBD), Brace(Bust), Butler(Bust) - Brace and Butler were picked 41 & 42, so back to back busts. Vollmer(hit). Tate(Bust) - COULD HAVE HAD MIKE WALLACE who Steelers took right after Tate!!! McKenzie(bust). Ornberger(bust)

2010: McCourty (TBD); Gronkowski(hit) Hernandez(hit) Spikes(looking like a bust); cunningham(looking like a bust when could have had Dunlap. with his buddy Urban Meyer, BB should have had a good read here). Taylor Price(looks like a bust just like Tate...injured and never makes it to a game now 2nd year in)


So, basically in last 6 yrs what they have to show is this
OL - 2 hits (Mankins, Vollmer)
TE - 2 hits (Gronk, Hernandez)
WR - 0 hits
RB - 0 hits

DL - 1 hit (Wilfork)
DE - 0
LB - 0
DB - 0 (McCourty , Chung TBD and BM was cut before finishing his rookie contract)


So, after all this wheeling and dealing over last half a dozen years what we have to show are 2 TE's, and 1 DL. For a coach hailed as Defensive genius pretty interesting how pathetic a record in recognizing talent and drafting D players, especially given ALL the draft picks he loads up every year with.

Looks like reality is a lot different than the "genius" who wears a hoodie.

 

[Ron Sellers]

...and more importantly....am I to assume that you are one the the enlightened one's on here...talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

I never said I was 'one of the enlightened ones' here, but if you want to learn something then I would suggest you pay attention to jays52, unoriginal, italia44, Metaphors, PatsNutME, Jack Bauer, and several others such as Box o Rocks and mayoclinic that unfortunately no longer comment here - most likely because they got sick and tired of the headaches they got from reading drivel such as yours that now permeates this site.


Tom Landry going 17-30 in his last three years could be construed as the NFL catching up with him.

Chuck Noll going 51-60 over his seven years in Pittsburgh could be construed as the NFL catching up with him.

Don Shula making the playoffs just twice in eight years could be construed as the NFL catching up with him.


Bill Belichick going 37-14 during a period of time which included one season without the team's starting QB, and two years of which can best be described as a complete rebuilding of the team cannot in my opinion be construed as 'the NFL caught up with him'.

The guy is not god, the guy is not a genius, and he does not always make the right decision. But put any other coach in that position and we're looking at four straight losing seasons since '07.

 

[DonBlackmon55]

Neither Meriweather nor Sanders is a starting safety in the NFL and they play for teams with a combined 2-4 record.

They're not here because Barrett and Brown were superior players in training camp.

So now we need excuses asto why we cut them. maybe the fact they were cut late into TC and are trying to learn a 4-3 system has something to do with it ?

So Pats are 2-1. Is that indicative of abilities of Barret and Brown. Equating teams' record to 2 players who are both with brand new teams 2 weeks in is beyond stupid.

 

[Ron Sellers]

So, after all this wheeling and dealing over last half a dozen years what we have to show are 2 TE's, and 1 DL. For a coach hailed as Defensive genius pretty interesting how pathetic a record in recognizing talent and drafting D players, especially given ALL the draft picks he loads up every year with.

Looks like reality is a lot different than the "genius" who wears a hoodie.

So after cherry picking all the negatives while ignoring as many positives as possible, how do you explain why the Pats have not fallen off the map like other SB participants such as the Rams, Bucs, Raiders, Cardinals, Panthers, Colts, etc.?

 

[The_Riddler]

Let's see

2004: Having passed on Stephen Jackson, took Wilfork who fell in the draft.... then could have added Karlos Dansby with 2nd #1. Everyone was looking for LB to help the D. Nope we'll take another TE, Ben Watson, when we had Graham already. Followed by Marquise Hill(RIP) - Rd 2 bust

2005: Makins9hit), followed by Hobbs in Rd 3(ugh)

2006: traded down for Maroney(bust). then traded up in rd 2 for chad Jackson(total Bust). Then, rd 3 &4 picks TE in each - both busts. LOL So, Graham, Watson, Thomas, Mills.

2007: Merriwhether(gone). Yea who needs a 3-4LB like Lamarr Woodley with 2nd #1 pick, or even trade down. But we get a nice DT in Kareem "dont call me Abdul Jabbar" Brown

2008: Wheatly and Crable, K. Oconnell, Wilhite - busts galore

2009 : Passes on clay Matthews when infact LB was a need. Patrick Chung(TBD), Brace(Bust), Butler(Bust) - Brace and Butler were picked 41 & 42, so back to back busts. Vollmer(hit). Tate(Bust) - COULD HAVE HAD MIKE WALLACE who Steelers took right after Tate!!! McKenzie(bust). Ornberger(bust)

2010: McCourty (TBD); Gronkowski(hit) Hernandez(hit) Spikes(looking like a bust); cunningham(looking like a bust when could have had Dunlap. with his buddy Urban Meyer, BB should have had a good read here). Taylor Price(looks like a bust just like Tate...injured and never makes it to a game now 2nd year in)


So, basically in last 6 yrs what they have to show is this
OL - 2 hits (Mankins, Vollmer)
TE - 2 hits (Gronk, Hernandez)
WR - 0 hits
RB - 0 hits

DL - 1 hit (Wilfork)
DE - 0
LB - 0
DB - 0 (McCourty , Chung TBD and BM was cut before finishing his rookie contract)


So, after all this wheeling and dealing over last half a dozen years what we have to show are 2 TE's, and 1 DL. For a coach hailed as Defensive genius pretty interesting how pathetic a record in recognizing talent and drafting D players, especially given ALL the draft picks he loads up every year with.

Looks like reality is a lot different than the "genius" who wears a hoodie.

KUDOS Donny Blackmon, Kudos to you on this !

BUY THIS MAN A COLD ONE AND I MEAN A TALL ONE AND MAKE SURE IT'S DAMN COLD, THIS GUY IS THIRSTY. Thank you for this tremendous, "fact-finding" insight. Something this board has needed for a while now on BB's true and real draft results over the course of wow, 7 years, you gave us 7 years DonnyBlackmon, thank you again, excellent work !

The prosecution rests it's case ! Let the facts tell the real story !

Can you imagine if Tom Brady wasn't here during those 7 years ?

 

[Sciz]

Let's see

2004: Having passed on Stephen Jackson, took Wilfork who fell in the draft.... then could have added Karlos Dansby with 2nd #1. Everyone was looking for LB to help the D. Nope we'll take another TE, Ben Watson, when we had Graham already. Followed by Marquise Hill(RIP) - Rd 2 bust

2005: Makins9hit), followed by Hobbs in Rd 3(ugh)

2006: traded down for Maroney(bust). then traded up in rd 2 for chad Jackson(total Bust). Then, rd 3 &4 picks TE in each - both busts. LOL So, Graham, Watson, Thomas, Mills.

2007: Merriwhether(gone). Yea who needs a 3-4LB like Lamarr Woodley with 2nd #1 pick, or even trade down. But we get a nice DT in Kareem "dont call me Abdul Jabbar" Brown

2008: Wheatly and Crable, K. Oconnell, Wilhite - busts galore

2009 : Passes on clay Matthews when infact LB was a need. Patrick Chung(TBD), Brace(Bust), Butler(Bust) - Brace and Butler were picked 41 & 42, so back to back busts. Vollmer(hit). Tate(Bust) - COULD HAVE HAD MIKE WALLACE who Steelers took right after Tate!!! McKenzie(bust). Ornberger(bust)

2010: McCourty (TBD); Gronkowski(hit) Hernandez(hit) Spikes(looking like a bust); cunningham(looking like a bust when could have had Dunlap. with his buddy Urban Meyer, BB should have had a good read here). Taylor Price(looks like a bust just like Tate...injured and never makes it to a game now 2nd year in)


So, basically in last 6 yrs what they have to show is this
OL - 2 hits (Mankins, Vollmer)
TE - 2 hits (Gronk, Hernandez)
WR - 0 hits
RB - 0 hits

DL - 1 hit (Wilfork)
DE - 0
LB - 0
DB - 0 (McCourty , Chung TBD and BM was cut before finishing his rookie contract)


So, after all this wheeling and dealing over last half a dozen years what we have to show are 2 TE's, and 1 DL. For a coach hailed as Defensive genius pretty interesting how pathetic a record in recognizing talent and drafting D players, especially given ALL the draft picks he loads up every year with.

Looks like reality is a lot different than the "genius" who wears a hoodie.

Now go back and do this for every single other team. 80% will be worse. You can't look at past draft picks in a vacuum, because then every team would look horrendous.