Has Coach Bill The Mad (Genius) Jumped The Shark??

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Off The Grid, Nov 9, 2011.

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  1. Off The Grid

    Off The Grid Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    #3 Jersey

    I think we have to ask this.

    To be clear:

    1 ~ No, I'm not one of those fools who thinks everything he does is wrong.

    2 ~ Nor am I one of those fools who thinks everything he does is right.

    He is the greatest Coach of this young Century ~ one of the very best ever ~ and one of the best General Managers, as well, in my opinion.

    He is, far and away, the greatest blessing this team has ever had.

    And his impact on this region has been revolutionary.

    But Greatness...does not mean Perfection.


    Perhaps I'm expecting too much of the man.

    Perhaps he set the standard of excellence too high.

    But his moves, ere the last few years, are striking me as increasingly eccentric.

    And I'm really starting to wonder if the man is simply burning out.
  2. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Was it Halberstam that first said he was playing chess while the rest of the league was playing checkers? Anyway, whoever said it, since that first super bowl, it's been 10 years for the league to respond and catch up to Bill.

    I'd still rather have him as head coach than any other one in the league, but the gap is not what it once was. There was a time when he could mask any shortcoming, and truth be told, at least on D, the shortcomings were less.

    Right now this D isn't where it needs to be to have a shot at anything bigger than an AFC east title.
  3. Off The Grid

    Off The Grid Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    #3 Jersey

    Ahhh...A rich, textured, thoughtfull response, Brother Virginia.

    And I agree:

    Whatever's going on with him, he still beats every possible alternative, at least as of now.

    And the extraordinary series of Draft trades he's pulled off, the last few years, has been brilliant.

    I still hold out hope that the best days of this Dynasty are yet to come.

    He always has been eccentric, after all. :D
  4. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    #91 Jersey

    Agreed brother Grid, BB is one of the all time best coaches (obviously) and i wouldn't want any other for this team.

    And i agreed with the term 'erratic' it best describes the personael moves of recent years, sometimes illogical, inexplicable moves imo (i don't think the AH was one of them, Fat A was low risk high reward)

    Last year it strcuk me that he had reverted to his Cleveland days where he was everything from coach to janitor, maybe he needs to step back and deligate authority. Hire a DC and a proper professional OC, and turn over much of the personel moves to someone else......Theres a reason you don't see Old World Chess Champions, eventually age catches up to the brightest minds. Especially ones thats balancing so many things at once.

    I actually look foward to watching him
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  5. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    If eccentric means that doing what he believes is best for the team and not giving a f... about what the mediots have to say I agree...

    Not sure about the burning out part, listening to the folks who live off of contrived controversy on the radio got me to thinking.. in the past Bill has always surrounded himself with some veteran front office and field generals who "grew" up with him in the coaching world; Pioli, Mangini, Dimitroff, Mangini, Romeo and Charlie to name some.. all of those folks whe respected and probably could confront him on some of his ideas... not sure there is anyone who can do that now.

    Perhaps that is what is needed..
  6. Off The Grid

    Off The Grid Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    #3 Jersey

    Great to hear from you on this, Brother Blue!! It's no secret that you are one of but an handfull of folks ~ Brother Atlanta and Brother Virginia, there, come immediately to mind ~ who have what I would call an appropriate level of awe for the man, yet can still see his faults and mistakes objectively.
  7. Off The Grid

    Off The Grid Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    #3 Jersey

    Very intriguing stuff, Brother Darryl.

    That's an angle to this that I haven't seen brought up, before.

    That may well have a lot to do with some of his bewildering moves, of late.
  8. Bostonian1962

    Bostonian1962 In the Starting Line-Up

    I don't think for a minute that he's burning out. He's still the greatest football coach in the business. He's a great defensive mind. It just doesn't translate to assessing talent. He's never been a great drafter. People forget that, because draft after draft when BB trades down for a 5th and two 7ths, the media drools "what a brilliant maneuver by Bellichick - he sure knows how to get value in the draft picks". Look what this trading down for all these extra picks has done to bolster the defense.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, when has he ever shown to be a master drafter? The Gronk/Hernandez draft is the exception, not the rule. I'm just being honest, because I love the guy. I don't think he's burning out. If he had the talent, he would work wonders with it.
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  9. borg

    borg In the Starting Line-Up

    Puzzling moves....

    7 DBs from 2010 are gone, drafted 1 in 2011

    4 Veteran DT/DEs signed in 2011, drafted 0

    5 out of 10 coaches never had NFL experience prior to interning under BB (5 from tiny colleges....what's the attraction?)

    2 RBs drafted (2nd + 3rd rds) to become the 4th and 5th RBs on roster (3rd string QB in the 3rd rd)
  10. Sivy

    Sivy In the Starting Line-Up

    I love every move he makes because i know he knows better than every fan on a message board...heck, even the worst coach in the NFL knows more about the game than any of us.
  11. AQPE

    AQPE On the Game Day Roster

    #80 Jersey

    Great thread overall, I basically agree with almost everything said by everyone who has posted so far. I did in particular want to echo what DarrylS is saying here because it is what I have come to believe over the past few years, and especially this one. I think we are seeing that even someone as capable as Belichick needs a very strong support system around him. Further my own experience in business leads me to believe that the support system needs to be diverse - people of different backgrounds, ages, ways of viewing and solving problems, etc.

    Not that I am all that familiar with the organizational chart in Foxborough these days, but from what I am able to recall off the top of my head here, the "old school" folks that BB has around him right now are Ernie Adams, Floyd Reese, Dante Scarnecchia, and Ivan Fears. A couple of coaches, one personnel guy, and BB's best buddy in football. The rest of the coaching staff, and probably most of the other members of the football organization, are (to my admittedly limited knowledge) fairly young. DarrylS' point is very believable to me on that basis, and I think it may be one of the keys to their current disappointing performance.

    I've always believed that coaching is the most crucial element in football. I think coaching has more of an effect on outcomes in football than it does in any other "major" sport (basketball comes pretty close). I'm not ignoring talent, but I think in football at the NFL level it is so much more about technique and discipline. You don't have to be a world-class sprinter to play with great speed in football. What I see from the defense this year is poor technique; bad ball skills by the DBs, bad pass rush moves, bad tackling technique. Poor communication is also, I think, a reflection of poor coaching. I agree that there is no head coach I'd rather have right now than Belichick, but his support staff isn't performing well enough, in my opinion.

    I don't go as far as some of the folks who post on this forum, but I totally understand the frustration of the "naysayer" crowd right now. To me, the pass defense has been the Pats' Achilles heel since the 2006 season started (following the departure of RAC and elevation of Mangini to defensive coordinator), and I've come to believe that the most signficant aspect of their issues has been poor coaching on that side of the ball, especially for the defensive backfield but almost as much for the linebackers. Interestingly, while some folks on this forum have hyped the idea of bringing in an experience defensive coordinator from a different system (Wade Phillips, for example), the Pats did bring in Dom Capers to coach the DBs and from my point of view that was not particularly successful. Goes to show you that there are no "magic bullets" here, be that bringing in a "name" player or a "name" coordinator.
  12. In a QB driven league, this is what happens when your franchise QB doesn't play like a franchise QB.

    Likewise, coaching doesn't turn the ball over 4 times.

    It's always best to go with the obvious answer.
  13. Palm Beach Pats Fan

    Palm Beach Pats Fan In the Starting Line-Up

    #12 Jersey


    To "jump the shark" means to desperately employ a cheap gimmick to make someone want to watch something or to care about something that is no longer worth caring about or watching. It implies that you are no longer even trying to do you job but are instead relying on publicity stunts to gain attention.

    It dates from the sitcom "Happy Days" which in the later years was running on fumes, many writers had left, and they were out of story lines. One of the much-hyped episodes had "Fonzie" jumping over a shark on water skis. People who watched realized that it was desperation time and the writers/producers were not even trying anymore.

    No one would argue that BB isn't trying anymore or wants to draw added attention to himself or his team.

    Sorry for the aside, but the rampant mis-use of this phrase is a pet peeve of mine.
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  14. BlueThunder

    BlueThunder PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    #91 Jersey

    Heh...That " Jump the Shark" episode was just re-run recently.....

    Not as exciting the second time around...and the acting left a lot to be desired..

    Funny how time affects how things look ....

    Maybe we look back on these moves and say " BB WAS a genius when he cut AH and almost the whole DB crew",,

    Then again, maybe not ! :eek:
  15. tedy hagler

    tedy hagler Practice Squad Player

    Time will tell. It's interesting to compare the Patriots under BB to the Miami Dolphins under Shula. Pro Football Reference has the offensive and defensive team rankings (points and toal yards being easiest to see) broken down for each year. Shula's 1960s teams and 1970s teams dominated on defense--ranked number 1-10 almost every year. Super Bowl winners. BB mirrors that, with some variations, with Giants in 1980s, and Patriots through 2004 ( 2007 defense actually pretty highly ranked too). Super Bowl winners.

    But both coaches later in their careers had quarterbacks Marino and Brady, considered all time greats. To get the best out of them, they remolded the team into offensive machines. Draft picks and trades focused mostly on players for the offense last few years for Patriots. I don't think it makes them lesser coaches. But it is interesting to compare the defensive Super Bowl legacies of those teams with the offensive firepower that did not bring home the same SB titles. If Shula and BB are A+ on the defensive side, maybe they are B+ on offense. And that is the difference between Super Bowl winners and 1st round exits on yoour home field for 2 years in a row (something else Miami in the 1980s was known for).

    I still love this team and think they can win, but being designed to score 30 points a game makes me yearn for days of Corey Dillon running and a nasty New England defense swarming like a jail break.
  16. rlcarr

    rlcarr PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    No Jersey Selected

    Not quite. That's one specific (albeit frequently used, and the original) way of "jumping the shark". But even years ago it had already come to mean "the point at which you realize the show/organization/person/whatever is/was as good as it'll ever be and it's all downhill from there." Before TVguide.com took it over and ruined it, jumptheshark.com had a great collection of reasons that TV shows jumped the shark.
  17. Off The Grid

    Off The Grid Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    #3 Jersey

    Brilliant analysis, sir!! :rocker:

    I agree, wholeheartedly. Indeed, I was just discussing with Brother Mayo that one of the first things I intend to do when I make my Billions and buy out the Kraft family...is invest HEAVILY into the Coaching Staff. I'm talking Joe Gibbs II, baby!!

    And they will be there to TEACH.


    I diverge with you, regarding Coach Capers, I think.

    For my money he is THE reason why the Packers made it over the hump, last year.

    Furthermore, I believe that Greg Williams ~ SPEAKING of "Joe Gibbs II" ~ is THE reason why the Saints made it over the hump, the year before.

    In short: I think Capers is fantastic. I would've loved to've seen Coach Bill The Mad bring him in and make him DC...and then EMBRACE a Fusion of their philosophies.

    Coach Bill has GOT to get over his fear ~ or anger ~ about losing DC's and OC's to other teams, and bring in some TALENT.

    Because I agree with you 1000%: Coaching is VITAL in the NFL.
  18. Off The Grid

    Off The Grid Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    #3 Jersey

    Brother Carr For The WIN!! :rocker:

    No offense, Brother Beach!! But he's right, of course: That term morphed a LONG time ago.

    And I am VERY familiar with the origin, as I was RIGHT THERE!! :bricks:

    But your interjection is VERY welcome AND greatly appreciated!!

    Tangents Welcome Here. :D
  19. olschool

    olschool Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    When you consider that BB played center/guard for a small college, it's not so puzzling, that he likes small school coaches.

    Plus, he always seems to have a good o-line, because he obviously knows the position.

    His draft problems always seem to be the skill players.

    It could come down to it just being the scouts. Maybe he needs scouts who know how to pick good wide receivers and defensive backs, instead of focusing on the line.

    I think the Steelers always seem to have good linebackers because their scouting dep't focuses on that position.

    In the end, I think the constant drain of coaches and front office personnel, since Weiss and Crennel left, has been BB's biggest problem.
  20. brdmaverick

    brdmaverick In the Starting Line-Up

    #32 Jersey

    Yes, I think it's the lack of front office/coaching support.

    I'm pretty sure most of us can relate given the economic environment. Many companies are not replacing employees that leave the company, instead they garner cost savings by having the remaining employees absorb the group.

    I think we can all relate to being in a position where we really thrive and exceed if it is your only focus. Once another task is given, sometimes you can only give 75% to both groups, and in the NFL, 75% is not going to cut it.
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