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Hamas provokes, Israel promises retaliation

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatsFanInVa, Feb 1, 2009.

  1. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well ladies and gentlemen, here is the latest:

    Israeli PM vows 'sharp response' if Gaza attacks continue - CNN.com

    Hamas fires four more rockets during "cease-fire." This is the bad thing Hamas does that some of us believe should not be tolerated. Israel has announced that if attacks continue, the response would be disproportionate. This is the bad thing that Israel does that some of us believe should not be tolerated.

    And I will simply light the proverbial fuse and, for the time being, retreat. I simply think it is worthwhile that we track events as they happen rather than make them up for the convenience of our arguments, the preferences of some "new historians" aside (i.e., "Jenin may never have happened but could have," etc.)

    We know that the intolerable behavior of both parties (yes I said both parties) will continue. We know that at least one side's behavior is not dictated by necessity. We suppose that the other side's choices are morally wrong (Israel's), in terms of proportionality -- and I am not hardened to this argument, personally.

    Again I ask, without allowing the debate from first causes (i.e., Israel should not exist, etc.): what is the way forward, given an Israel that must continue to exist, and given a Palestinian population that must live in dignity in a state of their own?

    PFnV
     
  2. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Maybe they'll kill another 1000 civilians and bomb another UN building.
     
  3. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It won't be long before they hit us again too (not Hamas, their religion)
     
  4. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Harry, just as it is inaccurate to say that Christianity murdered abortion doctors, because a few Christian terrorists took the law into their own hands, it is inaccurate to say that Islam ("their religion") attacked America. This is an extremely important point, no matter how often you make this attack on Islam as a religion.

    Maverick, it is telling but not surprising that you have nothing to say about Hamas actions.

    I see in neither response a discussion of a way forward.

    PFnV
     
  5. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    What is wrong with these people? ARe they just that fukkcing stupid or what? I guess that's the answer, they have proven time & time again and are telling the world,

    "Hey everyone! Look at how stupid we are!"

    And the world shakes their head in amazement.

    Oh....but wait. It can't be that simple. You have to understand it from an ethnocentric perspective to know the REAL story....what a crock!:rolleyes:
     
  6. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #12 Jersey

    Shuold they agree with Hamas and just cease to exist then? Maybe a mass suicide works for you?
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2009
  7. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    Mav is one of those who believe that if Hamas fires 10 rockets into Israel but they miss their target and kill no one, that Israel's response should include not killing any Palestinians.

    Then if Hamas fires another rocket and kills 10 Israili's, that Israel's response should only kill about 10 Palestinians. He doesn't realize that that if Hamas fires 10 rockets that kill no one and Israel responds with a single rocket that kills 500 Palestinians in response that it would be a fair response.

    That's the way war is and always will be. "All is fair in love & war" and if you are going to initiate a war, then expect a devastating response. Hamas is only getting what they deserve for their actions.

    Maybe Israel should just send a note that says,

    "Hey you guys...cut it out!":cool:
     
  8. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Nations (and even factions) are enjoined by all international instruments not to target civilians purposefully, and not to wage aggressive war.

    And nations are also enjoined to limit their responses in regard to proportion, even in cases where they are clearly in the right as regards casus belli.

    Why, indeed, does Hamas continue these attacks? I have no answer other than Hamas' stated answer, that there can never, ever be peace with Israel.

    Why does Israel announce prior to acting, that the response will be disproportionate? Perhaps to display to the people both of the region and of the world, that these actions have very painful consequences -- in doing so, they declare that their ends justify their means, irrespective of the dim light in which we hold disproportionate actions (of other countries.)

    I think people here know my sympathies, so I am trying not to indulge them. In the case of either of the sides, however, it is an interesting perspective to apply the famous aphorism "ought implies can."

    Can a Palestinian movement remain relevant without indiscriminate attacks on civilian targets?

    Can Israel, as a sovereign state, allow such attacks without taking all measures available to stem them?

    Our responses here indicate a very weak regard for the peoples of Israel and Palestine. Are both peoples trapped in a cycle, forever?

    I've indicated here during the heat of these attacks that it has become quite difficult to maintain hope for a state other than continuous warfare. I do not desire such a state, so I am asking for any ideas that include hope.

    We're all about to be subjected to the next phase of this bloody quid pro quo -- the Palestinian people in particular.

    Is there a way for the next round not to happen?

    PFnV
     
  9. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    I have watched it, seen it and read about it all my life. I have no answers or proposals that have not been thought of before. I only know that the answer or answers lie in the hearts of the people who live there.

    It is sickening & disheartening, I have no other words to describe my feelings about this war in the middle east. If it's not the Palestinians, its another Arab nation & Israel. Why is there so much hatred in the hearts of the Arab people toward one tiny nation? I don't begin to know that answer to that question.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2009
  10. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    PFnV, do you honestly believe Israel would ever allow the Palestinians control over their own borders, instead of the current situation spanning several decades where Israel decides how much food/water goes in and how much they want to STARVE an innocent group of people? If not, then the entire world is going down in flames once Israel pre-preemptively strikes its next paranoid-created target.

    There will always be people pissed if another nation is basically starving them to death. You have people pissed enough that they are willing to use desperate guerrilla tactics such as blow themselves up. This is not indicative of completely insane people no matter how much our media tells us; it is indicative of a very pissed off, desperate enemy going against a superior opponent.

    As for Hamas, what they do to Palestinians or Israelis does not have any defense. BUT... why do you think they formed 20 years ago? Do you think they came out of thin air or were in reaction to something legitimate?
     
  11. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    If it continues with disproportionate response and "eye for an eye" mentality, then Israel is JUST AS BARBARIC and does not hold any moral high ground whatsoever on anything. What a brilliant plan, let's keep escalating revenge upon each other until the entire world is up in flames because of two extremely stubborn, FOOLISH groups of people.
     
  12. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    Now this I can agree with...100%! That's scary
     
  13. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    What's the difference between Palestine as it is and self-sufficiency?
     
  14. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    If Israel means business then they should spare no expense in bombing every tunnel ... especially the Hamas run tunnels. Perhaps the Palestinians would then do what they should have done some time ago and what Israel cannot do ... overthrow and throw out Hamas.
     
  15. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Maverick makes a fair point. I'm not certain I agree with JUST AS BAD, but why split that hair? I can agree that it is not optimal to continue the cycle. Are there choices and what are they?

    Icy makes a point to the opposite effect, and one that definitely feels right to me as well, regardless of its opposition to Mav's, to wit:

    Israel's responses, regardless of proportionality, could:

    1) be targeted against necessary infrastructure thereby directly affecting Hamas' ability to wage war, and

    2) conceivably make the connection in the minds of Gazans with Hamas provocations.

    I think I agree with (1), but not with (2). There is a long history of the sentiment "He's a son of a *****, but he's our son of a *****" worldwide. I do not know whether the recent Palestinian civil war changes that way of thinking, or the particularly repressive nature of Hamas' rule in Gaza. I do not think these factors can be counted on to counter the basic nationalist urge to blame the Other. I go by the assumption that Palestinians aren't stupid, and they know Hamas has put them in this position. But I also think they continue to build their hatred toward Israel as a result, much more so than toward Hamas.

    So I think (2) may be a miscalculation, although the Mossad may think otherwise. (Or of course, Mossad could agree, although the politicians think otherwise.)

    PFnV
     
  16. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Hmm... only minor details like the fact that Israel controls its borders, food, water, and energy. Imagine living decades in a piece of crap refugee camp where whether you have light that night or food, depends on whether some other nation decides you eat.
     
  17. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Although Maverick has an answer as regards self-determination, the question went to self-sufficiency. At present, the Palestinians have access to neither.

    While it is important that Israel prevents self-determination, self-sufficiency will ultimately depend on turning the Palestinian populace toward economic self-sufficiency. The main export of Gaza at the moment is rockets bound for Israel.

    Do self-determination and self-sufficiency interact? Of course. Can Palestinians both fight a never-ending war against Israel, and achieve economic self-sufficiency? No.

    Were Israel to provide a way forward to self-determination and self-sufficiency, would that trump Palestinian bitterness regarding the past deprivation of said national attributes?

    If so, under what leadership?

    PFnV
     
  18. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Let me ask you another question since I've answered yours and you haven't:

    - What if, under DEMOCRACY, the Palestinians, or the Iranians, or whoever in that region, wants Israel to give up land and stop policing other people's access to food?

    Do you then ignore the will of the people? Or do you follow the typical route of extremist Zionists and kill either your own leaders or their leaders, or do what America does and topple democracies who you don't like?
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2009
  19. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If under DEMOCRACY, the American people decide that Russia must cede all territory East of the Urals to China, for example, the fact of American DEMOCRACY is insufficient to establish the rightness of that position.

    Said DEMOCRACY would be best served by establishing realistic goals and acting through the most effective means to bring those goals to fruition, including diplomacy with the perceived aggrieving parties.

    By the way, please cite any historical example of America, or any Middle Eastern nation, ceding land captured in war to another country, without losing said war.

    But didn't you just argue that a DEMOCRACY, acting on behalf of the "will of the people," is entitled to the land of another people?

    Make up what passes for your mind, Mav.

    By the way, one Israeli leader has been killed by his own people. It has been an anomaly in Israeli politics, but regrettably a regular occurence in the Arab world, for decades.

    PFnV
     
  20. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    You didn't answer my question at all.

    If we turn the entire Middle East into a democratic area where all regions are governed by the will of the people, and those people want Israel to give land back, then what?

    Based on your answer, the answer is 'no land back' and ignoring the will of those peoples... so to answer your repeated stupid questions in multiple threads, there will be global burning because of the Israelis.
     

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