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Guess she was wrong to step up, too. No, she was not wrong.

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Fogbuster, Dec 11, 2007.

  1. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    Here's a woman who responded to a man who entered a place where he started shooting and killing people at random. The woman, a volunteer security guard for the place, a church/missionary center, killed the gunman after he had already killed several people and was intent on killing more.

    Some people may say she was "wrong" to have killed him. I say she had no other choice, under those circumstances: people being murdered by a crazed gunman.


    COLORADO SPRINGS, Colorado (CNN) -- "It seemed like it was me, the gunman, and God," said Jeanne Assam, describing her feelings as she confronted a man who charged into her Colorado Springs church Sunday firing a weapon.
    art.assam.ap.jpg

    Assam, a church security guard with law enforcement experience, fired her own weapon at the invader and stopped his attack, police say.

    Police on Monday identified the gunman as Matthew Murray and said he was also responsible for an attack earlier Sunday at a missionary center some 80 miles away.

    The two incidents left four people dead, in addition to the gunman, and five wounded.

    Police said forensic evidence showed a positive match between a handgun found at the church and shell casings found at the missionary center in Arvada, a suburb of Denver.

    Officials from the Colorado Springs and Arvada police departments appeared at a joint news conference to brief reporters on what they had pieced together about Sunday's events.

    The first incident took place Sunday at about 12:30 a.m. at Youth With a Mission in Arvada.

    Police said a man with a beard, wearing a dark jacket, glasses, and skullcap, entered the facility, got into a dispute with a staff member about whether he could stay there for the night, and then opened fire.

    Two staff members, Tiffany Johnson, 26, and Philip Crouse, 24, died later Sunday from their injuries, Youth With a Mission co-founder Peter Warren said. Two other staff members were injured, and one was in critical condition.
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    Investigators tried to track the gunman through fresh snow with the help of dogs, but lost his trail in a heavily walked area, Deputy Chief Gary Creager of Arvada police said.

    About 12 hours later, police say, Murray showed up at New Life Church as a service was letting out.

    Police said Monday he had an assault rifle and two handguns, and may have had as many as 1,000 rounds of ammunition.

    He fired on a family who were in or near their car. Two sisters, identified by police as Rachael Works, 16, and Stephanie Works, 18, were killed, and their father, David Works, 51, was also shot and is hospitalized in fair condition with two gunshot wounds.

    Murray then entered the church, police say, where Assam was one of several volunteer security guards on duty.

    "I saw him coming through the doors," she told reporters on Monday. "I took cover, and I waited for him to get closer, and I came out of cover and identified myself, and engaged him, and took him down. And that's pretty much it." Video Watch Assam tell how she stopped Murray »

    Police said they were still investigating whether Assam's weapon killed Murray, or whether he might have died of a self-inflicted gunshot.

    Assam extended her sympathy to the families of the victims "and of the gunman -- and I mean that very sincerely."

    Phil Abeyta, who identified himself as Murray's uncle, appeared at another news conference and read a statement from the family asking for forgiveness.

    "Our family cannot express the magnitude of our grief for the victims and families of this tragedy," he said. "On behalf of our family and our son, we ask for forgiveness. We cannot understand why this has happened."

    Abeyta appeared with spokesmen from the Youth With A Mission center, who confirmed that Murray had been part of a training program five years ago.

    Peter Warren, director of Youth With A Mission, said Murray did not go on the mission he was training for in 2002 because managers thought that "issues relating to his health made it unsafe for him to do so."

    But a man who served at the center with Murray told CNN Monday that Murray was kicked out of the mission program for strange behavior. Video Watch more about Matthew Murray's background »

    A source -- a long-time member of New Life Church -- said Murray had a falling out with Youth With A Mission after working with the organization a couple of years ago. The source said Murray sent antagonistic and threatening correspondence afterward.

    Earlier Monday, Boyd said the gunman was unknown to parishioners there.

    "He simply showed up on our property yesterday with a gun, with the intention of hurting people, and he did," Boyd said.

    Boyd said the megachurch instituted security precautions after the shootings at the Denver area mission center.

    Boyd said Assam was a hero in preventing further bloodshed, rushing to confront the gunman just inside the church. "She probably saved over a hundred lives," Boyd said. Video Watch pastor tell how guard saved lives »

    "I give the credit to God. And I say that very humbly. God was with me and the whole time I was behind cover -- this has got to be God, because of the firepower that [the gunman] had vs. what I had," Assam said.

    "I did not run away and I didn't think for a minute to run away, I just knew that I was given the assignment to end this before it got too much worse. I just prayed for the Holy Spirit to guide me."

    She told reporters she had not slept since the shooting, "as I'm sure you can tell."

    She said she was on the third day of a three-day regimen of fasting and prayer, wanting to know God's will for what to do with her life, when the shooting took place.

    "I was weak, and where I was weak, God made me strong," she said. "He filled me and he guided me and protected me and many other people. And I'm honored that God chose me."

    Assam was one of about a dozen volunteer security guards at the church, half of whom are armed, Boyd said. The guards are licensed, trained and screened, and are church members, not "mercenaries," he said.


    http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colorado.shootings/index.html


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    Last edited: Dec 11, 2007
  2. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    She is a hero supreme ... a licensed gun carrier who had an idea that more security is warranted. IMO the needs of the many always are greater than the needs of the few ... he deserves to be dead and hopefully, if there is a hell he went straight there.
     
  3. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Of course she had no choice, but I suppose by crediting God with giving her the courage to shoot, we should also credit God with giving the killer the time to kill.
     
  4. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    Well, I believe the killer certainly is suffering from having to see and be confronted by the ones he had killed, and he will have to suffer that for a long time. There is no running away from it. By the security guard taking him out before he could kill any more, she saved him from even more suffering, so she did even the killer a favor, not to mention the many lives she undoubtedly saved. Some have estimated he might have killed *hundreds*, based upon the weapons he had and the amount of ammo he had.


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  5. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    You never miss an opportunity to deflect and deny the human portion of responsibility to use his life for either good or evil. You desperately try to say God is responsible for EVERYTHING, and that is clearly FALSE.

    Everybody has free will. You can use it to do the right thing, or you use it to do wrong. Either way, it is NOT God's responsibility; it is yours and yours alone. If somebody makes you angry whose responsibility is it if you hit/hurt/ or even kill that person?? Whose decision to act?? Yours, Patters, or someone else pulling your strings??


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    Last edited: Dec 11, 2007
  6. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No Fog, I agree, and my point was that the woman's crediting God was silly. She was brave because she had free will and did the right thing, not because God said, "Oops, what's going on here? A shooting! Better have someone kill the killer."
     
  7. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    Well, Pat, she has said she just finished doing a three-day fast and prayer condition. She was feeling very weak. And at the particular moment when she had to act, she asked for God to help her, and she says she then felt the strength she had not felt before. It's HER testimony of her personal experience, so I don't know what gives you the authority to question her. Your derisive doubt of her does not seem to embody a very "liberal" heart. Your heart seems closed and judgmental, disbelieving of the woman. Not open and trusting at all.


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  8. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The scumbag shooter probably thought he was going to have a "shooting picnic" by attacking all these Religous Wimps in church, SURPRISE, he ran smack dab into a Legal Well Trained Gun Toting women that immediately sent him straight to hell.

    America is fast turning into a third world garbage pit, buy a gun and learn how to use it.

    America's Cops are the finest and bravest in the world but they can't help you against the "NUT" the Cop is usually never there when the shooting starts, when the Cop does arrive people are dead, many more would have died but for this ARMED guard, buy a gun and learn how to use it then carry it LEGALLY, if the criminal has one than you should have one, if the Liberal Judges and the Liberal Legal system won't enforce the laws that are already on the books than you better start protecting yourself becuase those Liberal Judges are more concerned with protecting the Criminals Civil Liberties than they are with Protecting YOUR LIFE.
    BUY A GUN

    :bricks:
     
  9. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    I highly recommend very reliable, safe, and effective Kahr Arms. Along with Sig Sauer, another of my favorites, Kahr makes one of the most portable, compact, and most effective carry weapons anywhere. Made right there in Worcester, MA. You can even help the local economy!!

    The new P45 in .45 ACP is sweet!! The smaller, more concealable .40 cal and 9 mm are excellent, as well.

    http://www.kahr.com/


    [Disclaimer: I have zero financial stake in Kahr. I am not a partner, stock holder, or in any way, shape, or form connected to the company. I simply believe they make superior products that do the job they are asked to do. -- Fogbuster ]

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  10. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If God gave her the strength to kill the killer, then God failed to give her the strength before the killer could kill. I don't buy that.
     
  11. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Spam Alert!

    Fog, you are being very dishonest and as such further discredit your church. Kahr Arms has well known ties with the Unification Church.
     
  12. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    Again, you miss the reality of human portion of responsibility. It is NOT God's responsibility to give premonitions or to set up everything in His favor; if God did that then Satan would accuse God: "Oh, God, so you can't win unless you pre-arrange everything in your favor; you're a lying hypocrite, God! You didn't give free will!! You are a liar!!"

    God can not allow Himself to be accused, so He must allow humans to fulfill their portion of responsibility to sense what is happening and then respond accordingly. Once the killer showed what he was doing, and what he intended to do, THEN God could work when the woman asked for help. Acting pre-emptively on God's part would allow Himself to be accused, so He must wait until we act first.


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  13. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    Re: Spam Alert!


    Not at all, Patters. I have zero financial stake in Kahr. You can ask them. "I" am not the same as "the Unification Church" (which doesn't even exist as a legal entity anymore, but even when it did, I was never a part of its formal legal structure). I am simply one who believes in the teaching of the founder of what is/was called the "Unification Church". No legal connection whatsoever.

    So, apologies for calling me "dishonest" are due from you, Patters.


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  14. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well, that's a convenient argument if you only want to credit God with good things and blame man for bad things.
     
  15. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: Spam Alert!

    Full disclosure would require you to mention that Kahr and UC have connections, but you chose to simply recommend something without sharing that detail. That was dishonest.

    Is Justin Moon still the CEO of Kahr? Is he still a candidate for heading the UC after Reverend Moon dies?
     
  16. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    Holy CRAP!So God reacts out of fear of criticism from Satan? LOL!:rofl: That's the most idiotic interpretation of the bible that I've ever heard! Where'd you get such deep clarity and understanding of cosmic politics? What a condascending and low opinion of your god you have. If I was God, I would have had Satan knocked off a long time ago.
     
  17. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    Re: Spam Alert!


    There is absolutely zero legal connection between Kahr and the Unification Church, and never has been. Look it up before you hurl false accusations.

    Kahr was founded by Kook-jin Moon, the fourth son of Rev. and Mrs. Moon. But *I* have no legal connection to either the Moon family or to Kahr or to the Unification Church. None.

    So, your apology is still due.


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  18. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: Spam Alert!

    I never said you had a legal connection. If you did, I would have deleted your post as spam. The fact that you qualified what you said with the word "legal" was in my view simply a ploy by you to hide the fact that you do have an indirect connection in that you have an interest in the Unification Church. It would be as if I recommended Sicko for anyone searching for an objective understanding of the health system, without mentioning the fact that Sicko was directed by the liberal Michael Moore. But, I'm not dishonest in that way.
     
  19. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    Yeah, so would I. But that's not playing by the rule that God Himself set up. God created beings with free will. That means we all need to actively participate in our life, until we fulfill our purpose of creation. Do you sit at home and people come and feed you in your bed all your life?? No, I doubt that (even you, Wistah, don't do that, I'd bet). You must go out and get your own food, through working in some way that benefits others. Otherwise, you starve.

    By the same token, when God made us out of His perfect love, He told us not to mess it when He told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit. Thus, God told us how to avoid death, but we didn't listen; so we died spiritually. As Jesus says, we became children of "our father, the devil (Satan)". The only way to get out of the false father's grasp is to cut off all ties with him and re-engraft ourselves to the "true vine, the tree of life", who is the Messiah.

    None of this would be necessary if God could just do whatever He wanted whenever He wanted. No, the reason God gave us the commandment not to eat was so we would know we need to stay connected to God all throughout our lives. In other words, we each have the responsibility to keep our love connected with God first, last, and always. If we don't, Satan is waiting for us. And God can do nothing but pray we make the right choice.

    If God could have destroyed evil all by Himself, I am certain He would have done it as soon as it first appeared. But God cannot break His own principle of creation. He will not do that.


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  20. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    Re: Spam Alert!



    So, you mention Sicko. What *other* affiliations do YOU have, Pat?? What other associations with groups, clubs, organizations, or the like do you subscribe to?? Why don't you list for us all here every single affiliation you have, including your personal relationships??? Or am I, as a religious person, the ONLY one who needs to go through that Inquisition??? Atheists, agnostics, or others don't have to????


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