Groves talks 3-4, good stuff

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by BradyManny, Apr 1, 2008.

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  1. BradyManny

    BradyManny Pro Bowl Player

    Here's a little clip I found of Groves after a practice:

    The more I see from this guy the more I want him on our team, no matter the spot. I don't care if we have to take him at 7, and now I'm getting worried about trading down too far to get him. Any idea as to who will be the first threat beyond us to take him?

    To be honest, I can't believe he's even pegged as round 2 by some mocks given his production, the fact that he seems to live in the opponents backfield, and the fact that he can run a 40 faster than a lot of wideouts.

    More and more, I'm thinking he is the safest pick for the Pats and probably would be the easiest OLB conversion in the draft given he's already had experience playing in multiple roles. I also think he'd have the most immediate impact of anyone we could realistically draft, even when considering Gholston, and perhaps putting aside an RT upgrade like Clady or Williams.

    In the short term alone, you plug him in as a pass-rushing beast and our defense goes from "bend, don't break" to "get the offense the f*** off the field."

    When looking back at the SB, I think the underrated aspect is how the Giants were able to eat up clock on a couple long, sustained drives, and keep Tom off the field. The offense - despite the OL not showing up - was actually moving the ball fairly decently throughout the game and just didn't capitalize. Another possession or two would have made the difference. I think BB will now work on getting a defense that gets the oppossing offense off the field in a hurry so he can get Tom back on the field.
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2008
  2. Metaphors

    Metaphors In the Starting Line-Up

    Single. Most. Intelligent. Paragraph. In. Weeks.

    Everyone focuses on what happened in the 4th quarter and for good reason. I look to the 10+ minute gut punch that opened the game. The offense wants to be in a rhythm starting pre-game. Check out the sideline shots during that 1st quarter death march. Brady throwing his 90th warmup pass. The OL slumping in their seats. Moss looking up at the scoreboard time after time.

    Bring this up and people will point to the 3 points surrendered. I would much rather be down 7-0 after 4 minutes than down 3-0 with the offense taking the field for the first time staring down the 2nd quarter. The Pats made a living forcing defenses to attack for 60 minutes...and nobody could pull it off. The Giants didn't have to do that.

    Eli with sky-high confidence. A tight Pats OL. Brady, Moss and others looking anxious instead of cool and confident. The problems and bad luck in the 4th quarter are well documented, but the bed was made on the opening drive.

    That drive and others like it (Philly 1st half and Baltimore 3rd quarter) led to the purge in the secondary. You don't do that and then put together the same scheme with the same personnel skills. I expect Capers to implement an aggressive scheme within the boundaries of the BB 3-4 philosophy. I expect the draft to yield QB-seeking missiles at LB and ball-hawking athletes at CB.

    I don't know if Groves is the guy but this team is unlikely to be selecting at #7 again for a number of years. That is the type of asset that must be used to implement this defensive transition. I like McFadden and Clady and Albert as much as the next guy, but they don't address the lesson that the opening drive in the SB should have taught everyone.
  3. BradyManny

    BradyManny Pro Bowl Player

    Well put - I've been on the Clady bandwagon for a while (I'm mainly working under the assumption Gholston won't be there) and I see Clady as the remaining guy with the highest upside. But pass-rushing has to be the priority for this team as I see it, and I've moved on from selecting based on potential (Clady) and now think they have to go with immediate impact (Gholston, Groves).

    They can work with the CBs they have now if they add a pass rushing beast, and the best option for this team are going to be found in the first round. If they don't use the first to select a pass rusher, then they'd be banking on a guy like Avril being there at 62, and that doesn't seem as likely anymore.

    They can get solid CBs in rounds 2 or 3, or if they can trade down from 7, they probably have the assets to move up and get a guy like Cason.

    I really think the theme for the D is throwing the "bend, don't break" notion out the window - it was perfect for out teams in the past. But the offense has changed, and the more possessions Brady and Moss have to work with, the more likely the Pats dominate any given team.

    They can add Groves to the edge, let AD move inside on passing downs to either work in coverage or rush from the inside. It would allow for great flexibility, keep teams from knowing where the rush was coming from. The D could be lethal.
  4. JoePats

    JoePats In the Starting Line-Up

    What's the earliest spot we could take Groves? If we took him at #7 I don't think I would complain at all.
  5. BradyManny

    BradyManny Pro Bowl Player

    I had been in the camp that #7 is too early, but he'll be an impact player on this team, and if we end up taking him at #7, I think I'd be OK w it. And it seems a lot of folks around here that know a lot more about the draft than me are of the same opinion.

    I'd rather trade down and get him of course, add another pick and sign him for less at the same time. Even if its NO or Carolina, that'd be perfect just to move a handful of spots. So the question I'm curious about is how far could we trade down and still get him? It sounds like he has more value to 3-4 teams.
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2008
  6. PatsDparty

    PatsDparty On the Game Day Roster

    Anyone else getting a jets, pats, gholston, groves deja vu of robertson and ty warren from the 2003 draft?
  7. BradyManny

    BradyManny Pro Bowl Player

    Then let's hope we get the better end of the deal again :D
  8. sebman2112

    sebman2112 In the Starting Line-Up

    Paying attention to that clip, you'll notice he talks about playing on both sides, and in the middle. Auburn was working with a new 34 defensive package, and they blitzed Groves up the gut a few times.

    I don't know if anyone else has access to these articles, but earlier this week I read a article on Groves' performance at his Pro Day. They lead into it with "Groves Is Impressive, Again", and the article talked about his going through both D-line and Linebacker drills at the Pro Day. According to their scouts (Via that article & others on the site), Groves looked very fluid in LB drills, and they thought he actually looked better than guys who were career college LB's. He also displayed good hands, during those drills, holding on to the football.

    Groves has also said he'll play whatever position coaches want him to, and seemed excited to play LB. He's got private workouts scheduled with the Jets and Patriots on Wednesday and Thursday.

    Last edited: Apr 1, 2008
  9. BradyManny

    BradyManny Pro Bowl Player

    Great info, good to hear.

    What other teams do you think will target Groves? If we are to move down and still want him as an option, how far down can the team go?
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2008
  10. VJCPatriot

    VJCPatriot Pro Bowl Player

    Man, judging from the pics he looks physically impressive. I can't believe he looks that sleek and muscular at 259 lbs. Looks like half cheetah and half linebacker. :) Of course his college career is pretty impressive too. Groves might be an easier conversion to Pats 3-4 OLB than Gholston. Hopefully the Pats can spook the Jets into trading up to #5 to secure Gholston (in fears that Pats jump up ahead of them with Chiefs), then the Pats end up taking Groves in the 11-15 range. That would be good for a laugh!
  11. BradyManny

    BradyManny Pro Bowl Player

    That would be perfect :D
  12. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member Supporter

    #50 Jersey

    I really, really, really want a pass rusher in round 1. (Did I mention "really"?) I can't think of any one player who would make a bigger impact on this team than an OLB the defense has to scheme for on every play. I hope and pray that Groves can be that guy, because IMO he's the single mostly likely pick (either at 7 or trading down).
  13. tombonneau

    tombonneau In the Starting Line-Up

    Right now, IMO, perfect draft scenario is Ryan is on the board at #7 and the Pats slide back to the low-teens as a team looks to leapfrog Baltimore. Pats then snag Groves and pick up another 2nd rounder.
  14. BradyManny

    BradyManny Pro Bowl Player

    It sounds like he can be that guy. Whether long-term he's as good a prospect at 3-4 OLB as Gholston, that's well beyond something I can guess. But in terms of just sending a guy for speed on the edge in passing situations and telling him to tee off, it feels like Groves would be a monster in that regard.

    Take a 100% healthy Richard Seymour (something we've missed for two seasons), the versatility of Adalius Thomas to rush from the outside - or for a welcome change of pace - up the middle, and add in speed off the edge like Groves, and I think the end result is a lot of 3 and outs and a lot of QBs fearing for their livelihoods next season when facing the Patriots.
  15. Metaphors

    Metaphors In the Starting Line-Up

    My most likely scenario is to move down to #10 with NO leapfrogging Cincinnati to get Ellis. Both Groves and Harvey should still be there. That should net the Saints 3rd round pick (#78) which could be turned into someone like Goff. Sounds good to me.
  16. BradyManny

    BradyManny Pro Bowl Player

    Sounds great to me, too. Or we can even use that 3rd to move up and target a CB we like if need be. Either way, that would be a great scenario, and one of the more likely ones.
  17. sebman2112

    sebman2112 In the Starting Line-Up

    The Patriots would then have the ammo to trade up in the second for Cason, if he makes it out of the first, or they could sit at 62 and take the best CB or OT available.

    It's hard for me to project Goff. I really like him, and think he's among the best ILB's in the draft. I've noticed some professional scouts who've got him ranked as either the 1st or 2nd ILB in the draft, and a perfect fit for a 34 defense. But, some other sites have him going in the 4th or 5th round, and ranked 8th at ILB. The prospect of getting Goff that late in the draft is very appealing to me, but I tend to agree more with those who are projecting him as one of the best ILB's, so taking him in the third round seems about right, in my opinion.
  18. Metaphors

    Metaphors In the Starting Line-Up

    Agree with your observations and I don't understand them. The rap on Goff was top intangibles but limited physically and played on a poor team. However, Vandy played well this past year with Goff being very productive. Goff also did very well on the measurables at the combine. If I really wanted Goff (and I do) I would use the earlier 3rd round pick instead of losing him waiting for the later one.
  19. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    #12 Jersey

    I really think the knock on Goff is that he is limited athletically. If you watch the Florida-Vandy game, you see that displayed in all it's ugliness. Goff struggled to get into position against the superior Gator athletes and wound up looking slow and stiff.
  20. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member Supporter

    #50 Jersey

    Stiffness is what you hear most, which makes his great shuttle and cone times a little surprising. Maybe more a function of good combine-specific training?

    Any thoughts on Bryan Kehl from BYU? Is he just another uber-prepared combine wonder?
    6'2" 242 4.67/2.65/1.55 26 34" 4.23 6.88
    Intangibles all seem excellent: intelligent, tireless worker, team leader. And the skill profile sounds promising: good read-and-react skills, uses hands well to shed blocks. Has only played OLB, though, and is the typical BYU 24 years old.
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