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Group Think on Global Warming--This Is Why Algore Doesn't, as a Rule, Take Questions

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by State, Oct 11, 2009.

  1. State

    State In the Starting Line-Up

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    #70 Jersey

    YouTube - Daring to Question Al Gore

    I agree with the skeptical journalist that the former Vice President didn't answer the question. For example, the disinterested UK judge determined after hearing the facts that balance be provided for the young minds watching Gore's documentary in school--and specifically identifying lies, obfuscations, and distortions in the film--isn't exactly an endorsement of the film, as Algore says. The law in UK is now that the film can't be shown by itself absent countervailing opinion that balances out the untruths.

    And there has been a sharp increase in the number of polar bears over the recent decades. I know a lot of people derived their opinion on the matter by seeing the photograph of the momma bear and her child seemingly abandoned on the ice floe like the runaway slave mother in _Uncle Tom's Cabin_. Yet do these same superficial-minded folk realize it's just as easy to lie with photos as with words?

    This youtube video will live for a long time. It shows when forced to justify or defend his positions the Wizard of Oz Nobel prize winner looks a hell of a lot less godlike--and the efforts made to shut off dissenting opinion are indicative of force replacing reason. Intellectual thuggery.

    Too many people stand to make too much money. Including the Lord Fauntleroy boy from DC (his dad was a longtime senator from the state and he was raised principally in a privileged setting, unlike what he fabricated when running for President.)

    For those of you who believe in the foolish myth of global warming, ever heard of MIT atmospheric scientist Richard Lindzen? Most global warming is caused by water vapor. Carbon dioxide--plant food--constitutes three percent of the atmosphere. We humans are responsible for generating three percent of that three percent.

    So we're going to wreck our economy over that minutiae? You can't make this stuff up, folks.

    And the garbage-in, garbage-out computer models can't predict what is happening now, and what has happened in the past with our constantly changing climate. One of the increasingly unjustified assumptions is the importance given to carbon dioxide in the modeling, for example.
     
  2. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    Re: Group Think on Global Warming--This Is Why Algore Doesn't, as a Rule, Take Questi

    Nah, some of us derive our opinion on fact:



    July 6, 2009 (Copenhagen, Denmark): At the 15th meeting of the IUCN Polar Bear Specialist Group (PBSG), hosted by the Greenland Institute of Natural Resources, the PBSG renewed the conclusion from previous meetings that the greatest challenge to the conservation of polar bears is ecological change in the Arctic, resulting from climatic warming. Declines in the extent of the sea ice have accelerated since the last meeting of the group in 2005, with unprecedented sea ice retreats in 2007 and 2008. Evidence of these environmental changes, in conjunction with a re-evaluation of the polar bear subpopulations, have led PBSG to list eight of 19 subpopulations as currently decreasing, three as stable and one as increasing. For seven, data were insufficient to assign a trend.

    Polar Bear Status Report - Polar Bears International

    There's no way you can even state that there has been a sharp increase in the number of polar bears over the recent decades because there's never been an accurate count to begin with.

    For example, there are no population studies in Russia and there never have been studies there that would allow quantitative population assessment. In Canada, home to two thirds of the world's polar bears, many subpopulations have been assessed, but for some it has been so long ago that PBSG could not be confident that those old findings apply today. Some populations in Canada have good estimates of size, but no comparative data with which to assess a trend in size.
     
  3. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: Group Think on Global Warming--This Is Why Algore Doesn't, as a Rule, Take Questi

    "Group think" meaning the group outside of the 20% within the 5% of the world's population living in the US who deny anthrocentric global warming as an article of their conservative faith. But hey that's 1%, right? That counts for something, doesn't it?

    Yeah it's all group think, and you're an architect in an Ayn Rand novel. It's just the untalented and less intelligent majority that can't understand the brilliance of the few bright rebels who understand that all the data are wrong.

    Don't tell me... "yeah if them scientists is so bright why'd they have to fake the moon landing???"

    PFnV
     
  4. ljuneau

    ljuneau Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Re: Group Think on Global Warming--This Is Why Algore Doesn't, as a Rule, Take Questi

    The Climate Change Climate Change The number of skeptics is swelling everywhere.

    List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming

    Global Warming Skeptics Insist Humans Not at Fault

    I could literally post hundreds of links like this. There are now more scientists that now believe that man has a miniscule influence on earth's temperatures.

    But hey, don't let the facts get in your way, continue to delude yourself. You might want to take a vaction in Denver, I heard the skiing has been awesome this weekend.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2009
  5. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    Re: Group Think on Global Warming--This Is Why Algore Doesn't, as a Rule, Take Questi

    On the surface ... it's easy to bash the global warmers as they have little scientific evidence for their position. the earth's climate has shown to be ever changing.

    However - what is wrong with the premise of global warming in terms of developing alternative energies. We should have been on a global warming path from the 70's where we did kind of start in that direction. The future - as PressCoverage has well documented - is not in fossil fuels.

    When we get off our reliance on foreign oil and foreign debt we will be way better off economically and politically. too much money leaving the country and we need more money coming into the country. Developing green technology is a step in the right direction in many ways. I don't like cap and trade ... I would prefer to see more tax incentives to green technology production and use.
     
  6. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    Re: Group Think on Global Warming--This Is Why Algore Doesn't, as a Rule, Take Questi

    This statement implies that 100% of the people on the planet Earth outside of the United States all believe in man-made global warming, which of course is ridiculous. In fact, it seems to me that an awful lot of the global warming skepticism is coming from the UK.
     
  7. betterthanthealternative

    betterthanthealternative In the Starting Line-Up

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    Re: Group Think on Global Warming--This Is Why Algore Doesn't, as a Rule, Take Questi

    As someone who has witnessed first hand the spirited disagreement and debate inside the environmental science and atmospheric science communities, I can attest that group think is the last thing that is going on. These folks go through a questioning and re-questioning process that challenges every assumption and would exhaust 99% of the people on the planet.
     
  8. State

    State In the Starting Line-Up

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    #70 Jersey

    Re: Group Think on Global Warming--This Is Why Algore Doesn't, as a Rule, Take Questi

    I wish it were so.

    I have been closely following this. Ian Plimer's new book Heaven and Earth: Global Warming, the Missing Science shows how much groupthink is underway, where younger research scientists are getting the big dollars to be on the GW bandwagon.

    Here's an excerpt of what Plimer, a highly acclaimed and decorated Australian scientist (google him yourself) who has written a new GW debunking book, has to say:
    Source:AdelaideNow... Professor Ian Plimer's climate change book sparks debate
     
  9. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Re: Group Think on Global Warming--This Is Why Algore Doesn't, as a Rule, Take Questi

    So Pilmer's whole point is that because the climate has changed in the past and humans/CO2 didn't do it, change now can't be caused by humans or excessive CO2?

    Thanks so much for sharing that with us.

    If Florida's climate became that of North Dakota's over 30,000 years it wouldn't be that big a deal. Assuming Florida as a state in the USA is still around, they'd be able to adapt. Its when it happens in a couple of hundred years or when it shifts 10% of the way there in 20 years that things get dicey.

    Past climate changes are irrelevant because they've always come across the planet at the pace of a glacier. Man made Global Climate Change won't come that slow.
     
  10. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: Group Think on Global Warming--This Is Why Algore Doesn't, as a Rule, Take Questi


    Good question our economic prosperity has been based on the availability of inexpensive energy, 'alternative energy' sources are far less efficient, in many cases by an order of magnitude.

    We have more than enough energy resources to take care of our need we choose not to develop them instead sending our money to the middle east.
     
  11. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: Group Think on Global Warming--This Is Why Algore Doesn't, as a Rule, Take Questi



    CO2 is a trace gas the greenhouse effect is dominated by H2O not CO2, the idea that climate is driven by CO2 levels is laughable, especially when you consider that domesticated primates account for <4% of CO2 released into the atmosphere.

    Well over 90% of CO2 on Earth is in solution in our oceans, so what happens when the planet is warming (say due to the interaction of solar activity and cosmic rays) Well CO2 will come out of solution and move into the atmosphere see Henry's Law (for those who took High School Chemistry)

    Henry's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    This would account for a large portion of the observed increases in CO2 levels.

    Not to mention the fact that temps have cooled over the past 11 years.
     
  12. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    Re: Group Think on Global Warming--This Is Why Algore Doesn't, as a Rule, Take Questi

    We do? In what? where? At what cost?

    Gonna call bullshyt on that one...
     
  13. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: Group Think on Global Warming--This Is Why Algore Doesn't, as a Rule, Take Questi



    Nuclear, Bakken reserve, offshore, Arctic Ocean, we really have even explored off our own coast, and of course our enormous coal reserves.


    BTW a good point I saw raised about hydrocarbon fuels without orgainc material.... The Methane seas on Titan, no dinosaurs ;)
     
  14. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    Re: Group Think on Global Warming--This Is Why Algore Doesn't, as a Rule, Take Questi

    These have all been covered here. ... between you and I, in fact.

    If nuclear was cost effective, and there was plenty of uranium (there isn't), we would have built at least one NPP the past 30 years. We haven't. Not one.

    Bakken is oil shale, a synthetic called kerogen -- NOT light crude. Vehicles won't run on kerogen.

    Arctic reserves are unknown, and exponentially more expensive to attempt drilling (whether dry or full holes).

    Coal reserves are NOT enormous, extremely toxic already, and will NOT power vehicles.

    Again, where are the energy resources to sustain the 7 billion people who are here because of light crude oil? They don't exist. And they won't exist in time to offset collapse, which is occurring already.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2009
  15. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    Re: Group Think on Global Warming--This Is Why Algore Doesn't, as a Rule, Take Questi

    The reason we haven't built any nuclear power plants in quite some time (though I don't think it has been 30 years) has nothing to do with the availability of uranium (of which there is plenty). It has to do with the politics of nuclear power. Too many people take a "not in my backyard" approach to nuclear power plants because they dimply don't understand physics.
     
  16. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    Re: Group Think on Global Warming--This Is Why Algore Doesn't, as a Rule, Take Questi

    Bullshyt there is "plenty." Unless you have a very curious definition of "plenty."

    Would you like to have that debate?

    It has everything to do with uranium, and the question of what to do with the waste.
     
  17. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    Re: Group Think on Global Warming--This Is Why Algore Doesn't, as a Rule, Take Questi

    There is nothing to debate. I consider an estimated supply of several hundred to 1,000 years of uranium to be plentiful enough that the availability of uranium is not a factor when determining if we should build nuclear reactors.

    "In summary, the actual recoverable uranium supply is likely to be enough to last several hundred (up to 1000) years, even using standard reactors. With breeders, it is essentially infinite."

    World Uranium Reserves and Energy Independence
    I agree that what to do with the waste (i.e. the "NIMBY" attitude I mentioned) is indeed a factor. What to do with the nuclear waste was not in the statement I disagreed with.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2009
  18. patsfan13

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    Re: Group Think on Global Warming--This Is Why Algore Doesn't, as a Rule, Take Questi


    The enviros have blocked nukes not any other considerations while the rest of the world takes advantage of nuke plants.


    Shale is different, Bakken does have a great deal of light crude >1T barrels.

    The Russians are moving ahead at full speed, why do you think they did the stunt of planting the Russian flag on the seabed at the North pole? Why aren't we exploring to determine who much oil there is, we are doing fine extracting oil from the North slope again the leftist are blocking development.



    Coal in the US is plentiful enough to last a few hundred years. You are flat wrong on this point. Coal Plants with the proper technology are clean, and the technology for coal-gas liquification goes back to German yin WW2.



    The biggest problem is cutting off access to the resources and the insane MMGW cult. Billions could die as a result of our stupidity not due to a lack of resources. Our current MMGW obsession will kill millions in the third world, but they are mostly poor and black and brown and don't hang out in Manhattan or the Cape, so f'em right?

    BTW the Swedes have done studies on abiotic oil and as I pointed out we have evidence of non biological sources of hydrocarbon fuels.
     
  19. patsfan13

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    Re: Group Think on Global Warming--This Is Why Algore Doesn't, as a Rule, Take Questi


    What to do with the waste, 2 words BREEDER REACTORS, which have the happy effect of extending the supply of fuel greatly.
     
  20. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    Re: Group Think on Global Warming--This Is Why Algore Doesn't, as a Rule, Take Questi

    Searching the internet for information you want to be true is very easy. Regardless, you declaring that there is "nothing to debate" is laughable at best, and embarrassing for you at worst. Especially when you display one convenient quote from a site like "americanindependence.com," which also promotes biofuels. Oops.

    Here we are:

    The Oil Drum | Uranium Depletion and Nuclear Power: Are We at Peak Uranium?

    Any forecast of the development of nuclear power in the next 25 years has to concentrate on two aspects, the supply of uranium and the addition of new reactor capacity. At least within this time horizon, neither nuclear breeding reactors nor thorium reactors will play a significant role because of the long lead times for their development and market penetration. This assessment results in the conclusion that in the short term, until about 2015, the long lead times of new and the decommissioning of ageing reactors perform the barrier for fast extension, and after about 2020 severe uranium supply shortages become likely which, again will limit the extension of nuclear energy. ​

    WMC Ideally Placed to Deal with Increased Uranium Demand

    Current global uranium production meets only 58 per cent of demand, with the shortfall made up largely from rapidly shrinking stockpiles. The shortfall is expected to run at 51 million pounds a year on average from next year to 2020. ​

    Uranium 2005: Resources, Production and Demand

    During the last 15 years, the shortfall between production and requirements was made up by excess commercial inventories, uranium released from military use and other secondary sources. These are now in decline, and the shortfall will increasingly need to be made up by primary production.​

    WNA Annual Symposium 2006

    Robert Vance, while looking back at 40 years of Uranium production through all of the Red Books, found that peak global production was achieved in 1980 at 69,683 tonnes from 22 countries. In 2003, uranium production totaled 35,600 tonnes from 19 countries.

    On the road to ruin | Society | The Guardian

    Michael Meacher, the former environment minister of the UK 1997-2003, and UK Member of Parliament, reports that peak uranium happened in 1981. He also predicts a major shortage of uranium sooner than 2013 accompanied with hoarding and its value pushed up to the levels of precious metals.

    Uranium mining, global

    The European Nuclear Society maintains that "global uranium mining has decreased since 1991..."​

    Moneyweb - Mining - Uranium will peak in 2009, Lehman says

    Lehman Brothers Holdings analysts Rohit Ogra and Edward Moore predict uranium will hit a peak in 2009. However, they see it as a temporary peak because supplies of uranium won't exceed demand until 2012.

    World Nuclear Association, The Global Nuclear Fuel Market: Supply and Demand 2007-2030, pg. 112:

    According to the WNA in 2005, the uranium primary production will expand for 10 years. Then many existing mines will close due to resource depletion. This is expected to result in a leveling and downward trend in production capability. The WNA projects that global primary production will peak in 2015 at 71,512 tonnes of uranium per year, before declining to 70,474 tonnes per year by 2019.​

    You're right... Undebatable.

    As for breeders, and thorium, for nuclear production, that technology is 8-12 years away from being remotely viable. And won't solve the uranium crunch even when/if it is.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2009

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