Grizzlies: The Offensive Front Line

[Wilfork#75]

Isn't the fact that he played at 280 for five straight years, from his senior year in high school through four years of college, an indication that he might not be able to bulk up? I'm sure he was trying, he just might not be a guy who can carry 295 and be in shape.

I know he was 290 at one of the senior bowls but apparently he looked fat and out of shape. He's short (for an o-lineman) and narrow (for an o-lineman).

I think he didn't bulk up in college because he didn't have to, he was dominant at 280. Just looking at his frame I think he could carry an extra 15 pounds of mainly muscle, which is where I think a year sitting behind Koppen could allow him to bulk up in the correct way. He did show up at 290 at the senior bowl and didn't look too impressive, but thats because he was only trying to put the weight on to get to what people expect of O-Linemen. There is no way that in such a short space of time he could have gotten his weight up to a range where scouts would be happy in the correct way, so he just added fat instead of muscle, which is understandable. I think we also have to take into account the lifestyle of a college player compared to an NFL player. As a professional football player I think he will have access to better strength and conditioning coaches and nutritionists, and be focused solely on football, and not have to worry about classes or anything like that. Will he ever get to around 300lbs, maybe not. But im sure with the proper environment and patience he will get to a point physically where he can be a very good NFL player.

 

[Shelterdog]

...a professional football player I think he will have access to better strength and conditioning coaches and nutritionists, and be focused solely on football, and not have to worry about classes or anything like that. Will he ever get to around 300lbs, maybe not. But im sure with the proper environment and patience he will get to a point physically where he can be a very good NFL player.

Maybe, I'm just dubious about a college player who'se played at a consistent weight (and been at a BCS school) putting on 15-20 pounds. The nutrionists, strength coaches and the like should be better in NE but they were probably pretty good at FSU.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't think they had a very good game against the Jets, particularly Koppen. It may have been b/c he was hurt. The Jets were getting pressure with as little as three rushers.

I'll grant that there was plenty of blame to go around in that game, but I don't think the OL play was a high point.

You're welcome to believe that the o-line could have been better in that game, and I'm not going to argue that. But the initial point of OTG that I was responding to was the following:

...Honestly, though, I was making a broader point: Coach B's persistent refusal to address the limitations that Super Bowl 42 exposed on our O Line...which has obviously continued to haunt us.

There is no way that it was the O-line "haunting the team" that cost the team the games in the 2009 and 2010 playoffs, and it wasn't the o-line that was the issue in 2008.

 

[Snake Eyes]

You're welcome to believe that the o-line could have been better in that game, and I'm not going to argue that. But the initial point of OTG that I was responding to was the following:

There is no way that it was the O-line "haunting the team" that cost the team the games in the 2009 and 2010 playoffs, and it wasn't the o-line that was the issue in 2008.

Well, it certainly was an issue, though not the primary. As for me, I want a younger and nastier O-line.

 

[Deus Irae]

Well, it certainly was an issue, though not the primary. As for me, I want a younger and nastier O-line.

The offensive line didn't force Brady to throw that horrible pick, and it didn't force Crumpler to drop a TD pass.

I will agree that having Connolly in the starting lineup is a very bad thing, as he negatively impacts both the player to his left and the player to his right as well as being a problem himself.

That's an injury issue, though, not an issue with the starting line itself. Age and injury have led to the need to look for the next generation, particularly at RG (I'm a big fan of BB taking Pouncey), but the group is still a top shelf line when healthy.

 

[Snake Eyes]

The offensive line didn't force Brady to throw that horrible pick, and it didn't force Crumpler to drop a TD pass.

I will agree that having Connolly in the starting lineup is a very bad thing, as he negatively impacts both the player to his left and the player to his right as well as being a problem himself.

That's an injury issue, though, not an issue with the starting line itself. Age and injury have led to the need to look for the next generation, particularly at RG (I'm a big fan of BB taking Pouncey), but the group is still a top shelf line when healthy.

When healthy? There's the rub, because if we do make it to the playoffs we won't be completely healthy. Everyone talks about how dominant Mankins was but I don't think they take into account the fact that he was playing on fresh legs next to and opposing guys that had been playing for half the season. Being healthy is key, but if we don't have the youth and depth to account for a rough season then we won't move deep in the playoffs.

Assuming we can move Mankins for nice loot I'd like to see us grab Watkins and Pouncy, and throw in Willie Smith while you're at it (depending on how Maneri's progressing of course). I think you have to judge a team by how they can perform in the post-season.

 

[Deus Irae]

When healthy? There's the rub, because if we do make it to the playoffs we won't be completely healthy. Everyone talks about how dominant Mankins was but I don't think they take into account the fact that he was playing on fresh legs next to and opposing guys that had been playing for half the season. Being healthy is key, but if we don't have the youth and depth to account for a rough season then we won't move deep in the playoffs.

Assuming we can move Mankins for nice loot I'd like to see us grab Watkins and Pouncy, and throw in Willie Smith while you're at it (depending on how Maneri's progressing of course). I think you have to judge a team by how they can perform in the post-season.

The line hasn't been the cause of the postseason losses in 2009 and 2010, and the only real health issue among the starters has been with Neal.

Does the line need another starting level guard for when Neal retires/gets hurt? Yes, but that's not a complete overhaul.

Sign Light for 2-3 years
Sign Mankins for 5 years
Draft Pouncey


That leaves

Light
Mankins
Koppen
Neal/Pouncey
Vollmer


and I'll take my chances on that group come playoff time.

 

[Snake Eyes]

The line hasn't been the cause of the postseason losses in 2009 and 2010, and the only real health issue among the starters has been with Neal.

Does the line need another starting level guard for when Neal retires/gets hurt? Yes, but that's not a complete overhaul.

Sign Light for 2-3 years
Sign Mankins for 5 years
Draft Pouncey


That leaves

Light
Mankins
Koppen
Neal/Pouncey
Vollmer


and I'll take my chances on that group come playoff time.

The Jets were getting pressure with 3 rushers and Brady was sacked multiple times, not good enough. Brady has been routinely injured recently, he's the franchise and if we want to win the SB we need to protect him. More youth and beef is needed.

 

[Deus Irae]

The Jets were getting pressure with 3 rushers and Brady was sacked multiple times, not good enough. Brady has been routinely injured recently, he's the franchise and if we want to win the SB we need to protect him. More youth and beef is needed.

AGAIN.... And I really don't get why this is so difficult for some of you to grasp..... The problem in the game was NOT the offensive line. Even with a stiff starting at right guard, the line did well enough for Brady to do his job. The league's MVP simply chose the wrong day to have a crappy game.

As for Brady getting injured, he holds the ball for as long as the line allows him to, if he can't find an open receiver. If the line holds for an hour and a half, Brady holds the ball for an hour and a half. That's why he takes a lot of hits that people like yourself complain about.

The youth and beef stuff is just window dressing. It's the standard gripe of everyone who can't actually figure out a team's problems. The Patriots were 'young' in 3 of 5 positions last year, and Koppen isn't exactly ancient at 31, either.

 

[IllegalContact]

I think Neal is done.......It's been 6 years since he's played a full year and has missed half the season 3 of the last 4 years. Still good when 100%, but that doesn't happen anymore and now only serves as detriment to the development of depth and continuity. Time to move on.

Sign mankins and light
Draft an OG and OT within the first 3rounds.....Watkins and a solid developmental OT.

Koppen is good for 3 or 4 more years.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I don't think they had a very good game against the Jets, particularly Koppen. It may have been b/c he was hurt. The Jets were getting pressure with as little as three rushers.

I'll grant that there was plenty of blame to go around in that game, but I don't think the OL play was a high point.

Seems like whenever Koppen has a bad game, the entire O Line suffers.

I thought Koppen made some really bad calls in the Jets game and the OG's and OT's got confused on where the help was coming from.

 

[Off The Grid]

WTF???

One of many dumb @$$ remarks I've made, lately, a production of a brain fart: I was thinking of that slick haired donkey ~ that iconic draft guy who's name even yet escapes me...

Mayock, I like.

A toast to you, for being the first poster in memory to "WTF" himself! :eat3:

I'll add my toast to yours! And to think, Mel Kiper made this event possible.

Hah!! HUMBLE thanks, to you, Brother Teich, and DOUBLE thanks to YOU, Sister Pat, who I hold in unabashedly lofty esteem!! :eat3:

Yes, I AM, doubtlessly, a DONKEY...

Hopefully, my contributions have ~ or at least WILL ~ outweigh my periodic Defenestration of Reputation...

And if they do NOT...I can only hope that the aforementioned Defenestrations are at least...AMUSING.

~ 1st Disciple of The InterNational House of Recovering Perfectionists

 

[Off The Grid]

Doug Farrer wrote a good article for Football Outsiders analysing Gabe Carimi, Nate Solder and Derek Sherrod. I don't know what he's like as an evaluator, but hopefully it's a useful discussion starter.

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Cover-2: OTs of the 2011 Draft

Very well-written and thorough - and followed by intelligent comments. The follow-up on Hudson and Watkins was informative as well with a nice exploration of moving Hudson to OC and, in the comments, the not-so-insane suggestion about moving Hudson to DT.

I love Hudson as a Center and I really think he could be a special player if he ends up in the right environment. He is by far the best technician in this draft and the only reason he isnt a 1st rounder is his size. However, I think if he can sit for a year behind Koppen and bulk up properly, I dont see any reason why he couldn't play at 295-300 lbs. He seems like the perfect fit for the Pats system and is the exact type of player the Pats would go after. He's a 4 year starter, played a variety of positions, is the most decorated O-Lineman in FSU history and is the only 4-time All ACC offensive lineman EVER. The final thing I love about Hudson is he is DISCIPLINED. He only gave up 3 penalties in his first 3 years, including a streak of 20 consecutive games without a penalty.

One thing that could help the Pats if they really like Hudson is the fact that he is likely to drop coming into the draft based on his size. We saw after the Senior Bowl weigh-ins people already started dropping Hudson down their boards. I believe the same thing will happen at the combine, because unlike the Senior Bowl, Hudson wont play any more games until the draft, and thats where he shines. He may not look great in drills, and may struggle against bigger NT's in 1 on 1's, but in games he is spectaular. I think he will likely end up being an early to mid 3rd rounder, which would be an absolute steal for anyone.

In terms of Danny Watkins, he is a really intruiging guy. He obviously has a ton of potential and his stock is definately on the rise. However, I have two main concerns about him. The first is obviously his age, because a 26/27 year old rookie isnt ideal, especially as an early pick. My second concern is how high he will get drafted. If he's available at 60 he's a no brainer, but at 33? I just dont know. And if some team really falls in love with him it wouldn't suprise me to see him in the late first round, where some people are already mocking him. He's definitely a guy to keep an eye on but I really wouldn't over draft him with really solid guys available in the 3rd/4th rounds.

The question from the Pats perspective, of course, would be whether Hudson projects significantly better than the two guys of similar size already on the roster - Wendell and Ohrnberger - who also already have a couple years experience in the system. Would the difference between Hudson and where these two are right now in their development be sufficient to dump one of them and spend the #60 or #74 on Hudson? Obviously, we have no way to know the answer to that with any certainty.

Thats definitely an interesting question, and I think it would be a larger issue if Koppen wasn't under contract for another year because Hudson wouldn't be asked to come in and start right away. I dont have a whole lot of confidence in Wendell or Ohrnberger to become more than solid backups, while I see Hudson as a potential Pro Bowl OC. So I definitely think I would take Hudson above both Ohrnberger or Wendell, especailly with the ability to move Connolly to Center if needed. Another thing that may come into consideration is expanded rosters with an 18 game schedule and the ability to carry an extra OL or two. To go back to the original point, from day 1 would Hudson be a better option than Ohrnberger or Wendell? Maybe not. But given a year with Scar to develop I absolutely believe he would be worth spending a late 2nd early 3rd on.

I love Hudson, for all the reasons you cite. Personally, I don't see him as being the solution. I want us to haul in Benjamin Ijalana, who strikes me as commanding a FEROCIOUS fusion of Athleticism and POWER. Having watched the demise of our 2007, 2009, and 2010 Campaigns, which had many contributing factors, but, doubtlessly, a lot to do with O Lines that were good enough to get us in the PlayOffs but not good enough to win them...I don't want to draft anyone who isn't at least potentially DOMINANT. As Brother Maine suggests: we've already got good Guards and Centers on the roster...But I do love your Arguments in favor of Hudson.

 

[Off The Grid]

When healthy? There's the rub, because if we do make it to the playoffs we won't be completely healthy. Everyone talks about how dominant Mankins was but I don't think they take into account the fact that he was playing on fresh legs next to and opposing guys that had been playing for half the season. Being healthy is key, but if we don't have the youth and depth to account for a rough season then we won't move deep in the playoffs.

Assuming we can move Mankins for nice loot I'd like to see us grab Watkins and Pouncy, and throw in Willie Smith while you're at it (depending on how Maneri's progressing of course). I think you have to judge a team by how they can perform in the post-season.

The Jets were getting pressure with 3 rushers and Brady was sacked multiple times, not good enough. Brady has been routinely injured recently, he's the franchise and if we want to win the SB we need to protect him. More youth and beef is needed.

Nicely put, sir, though I don't know why you bother to argue with that guy.

It's crystal clear that the Patriots O Line needs upgrading. It's fallen short in each of our last 3 PlayOff defeats, though nobody is saying that that was the only reason we lost: only that it was critical.

Having said that, I ought also repeat: Should we make the right moves to thrust our DEFENSE back to the lofty level it once commanded, we can certainly win MULTIPLE Super Bowls with the current O Line, which is, after all, every bit as good as that which we had for our first 3 Super Bowl wins...But I see no reason not to Have Our Cake And Eat It Too: We have the wherewithal to dramatically improve our Defensive Front 7 AND our O Line. Here's hoping we DO SO!! :rocker:

 

[Off The Grid]

Wes Bunting, Analyst Extraordinaire, on David Mims, my Super Binkie!!

David Mims is a 6.8/350 O Tackle BEHEMOTH.

He would have to burn off at least 25 pounds to fit in our scheme.

But his athleticism, even at that size, is AMAZING.

He's raw as hell, but he's got Hall of Fame Potential, given the right guidance.

And we could very likely pick him up for a 6th or 7th Rounder.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Wes Bunting, Analyst Extraordinaire, on David Mims, my Super Binkie!!

David Mims is a 6.8/350 O Tackle BEHEMOTH.

He would have to burn off at least 25 pounds to fit in our scheme.

But his athleticism, even at that size, is AMAZING.

He's raw as hell, but he's got Hall of Fame Potential, given the right guidance.

And we could very likely pick him up for a 6th or 7th Rounder.

In terms of Binkiedom, has he surpassed Willie Smith?

And while we're on the subject of BINKIES and GRIZZLIES, check out Darren McFadden's highlights from last year and pay particular attention to #68, Left Tackle Jared Veldheer, who was not only my binkie last year (who I advocated taking in the 2nd round with 1 or our 3 picks) but he was also one of the best steals of the draft.

Look at the holes he opens for McFadden, with him and Seabass as bookends TFB would have been well protected along the outside for the remainder of his career.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noiHV_GRK5s&feature=related

 

[Off The Grid]

Wes Bunting, Analyst Extraordinaire, on David Mims, my Super Binkie!!

David Mims is a 6.8/350 O Tackle BEHEMOTH.

He would have to burn off at least 25 pounds to fit in our scheme.

But his athleticism, even at that size, is AMAZING.

He's raw as hell, but he's got Hall of Fame Potential, given the right guidance.

And we could very likely pick him up for a 6th or 7th Rounder.

In terms of Binkiedom, has he surpassed Willie Smith?

No, indeed: Willie "Fresh Prince" Smith is my Alpha Binkie.

But I LOVE me some David Mims!! :rocker:

 

[Off The Grid]

Wes Bunting has an annoying habit of virtually cutting and pasting my thoughts HOURS after I've reached a decision which I'd seen no immediate need to publish...thus rending my appearance that of a parrot.

But as I like pretty colors, I cannot get too upset.

***

After a few weeks of thought, culminating in an all night pondering ~ well, I work Grave Yard ~ I decided, at dawn, to pull Benjamin Ijalana back onto my Mock Draft ~ Version #114, for those scoring at home.

Not for the first time, it was Sister Patricia's prompting that triggered a furious phase of intensive study: I first became "Draft Conscious" about 30 years ago, when the Patriots and Colts battled in The Toilet Bowl for the privilege of drafting the immortal Ken Sims, but it's only been over the last 12 months that my interest and education have taken off like ROCKETS, thus engendering many phases of growing pains and furious activity.

In this instance, I have come to realize that considering drafting any O Guard over the height of 6.4 is something not to be taken lightly.

Logan Mankins ~ 6.4
Jahri Evans ~ 6.4
Christopher Snee ~ 6.3
Benjamin Grubbs ~ 6.3

And when I cast a wide eye upon potential O Guards, in this year's Class and next, I realize that next year's is completely and utterly BEREFT of suitable candidates of the Caliber ~ and height ~ that I would insist on, were I in charge of such things.

And Danny Watkin's arms are just too short for me. Sorry!!

***

Furthermore, and yet more to the point: I realized that I had over analyzed Benjamin Ijalana, with whose talents I became intoxicated way back in October. Prospect Fatigue??

Simply put: The young man brings an utterly AWESOME fusion of Strength, ferocious Athleticism, and demolishing POWER to the game: He DESTROYS the competition where he's at, and with a little time in Dante's Academy, I believe he could become a Dominant Force: I'm talking multiple Pro Bowls.

The accusations of a lackadaisical attitude is what had made me shy away for a bit, there, but upon further reflection, I realized that that was an overreaction on my part: Small school kids ~ he doesn't even have a Line Coach!! ~ are apt to slip and slide, particularly if they happen to DOMINATE the competition. Even Jahri Evans himself draws criticism for his allegedly insufficient "Nasty".

This is what was on my mind, last night, and why I shook my head when I read Bunting's article, which I hope you'll enjoy as much as I did ~ and I should note that he's actually selling Ijalana as an O Tackle, a notion which I entirely REJECT:

Villanova?s Benjamin Ijalana: A top five OT? | National Football Post


Suffice to say: He is back to stay in my Mocks. Probably.

 

[Off The Grid]

There's no question that Tyron Smith is an extraordinary prospect.

The main reason that I don't want us to go after him are simply because Defensive End offers a Perfect Storm of Need + Opportunity.

***

Of course, I also see Willie "Fresh Prince" Smith ~ a Late Rounder ~ as being the 2nd best Left Tackle prospect in the draft, behind Tyron, himself, and ahead of the rest of that lot.

And I see David Mims ~ a VERY Late Rounder ~ as being the VERY best Right Tackle prospect in the entire Draft, though of course we'd need him to burn off a few pounds.

I'd also like to see what Steve Maneri can do.

***

For now, I'm assuming we still have All Pro Matt Light.

And if a clear 10 Year solution doesn't arise from a combination of any of the above with Sebastian The Cruel, there are about 5 guys I'd love to take a look at, next year, particularly Riley Reiff.

 

[cstjohn17]

Not exactly a news flash but I saw this in Reiss' blog

"The offensive tackle is a very interesting board," he said. Part of what makes it interesting is that there is less concern with a group of tackles when projecting them to guard than what there would normally be.
"

Nick Fairley + New England Patriots = Pro Bowler | National Football Post


Patriots like players with flexibility along the line, watch those Tackles to Guard candidates closely in rounds 2-4.