Gramatica In Cold Weather

[patriotsrule]

Also, is Gramatica's 61% beyond 39 really that significantly different than Vinatieri's is 67% from 39 and beyond for his career? Is 6% or so that significant? Especially when you consider Gramatica is 62.5% beyond 49 while Vinatieri is 47% from that range. Not to mention the fact Gramatica was at 67% from that range himself before an injury which hurt his effectiveness and required surgery. As I said, they can evaluate him in camp and if he can't kick anymore, move on. I got the feeling he will be able to do a fine job if he's healthy, which I suspect he is.

J D Sal

He had his surgery early in 2004 and yet despite getting tryouts last year, no one wanted him. Did you ever think that his surgery actually negatively affected his kicking? No, because IN BILL WE TRUST. But who cares, according to your loser research, he's just as good as Vinatieri.

 

[Alk]

Wow, you are actually comparing that joke Gramatica to Vinatieri. I mean, wow. I can't wait. I hope like hell this guy is our kicker because I can't wait to come back on here and listen to you all cry when he misses his first big kick. Comparing Gramatica to Vinatieri. Absolutely amazing how idiotic some of the statement by blind Patriots fans can be. If you think it's a good signing, fine but don't come on here throwing stupid stats around and compare this stiff to a possible future Hall of Famer. For once, I would love to see a post on here that isn't led by blind, stupid faith. Hey everyone, Gramatica is only 6% points behind Vinatieri. All is right with the world. What a joke.

So you hope we lose just so you can drive your little point home? Gotcha. And if you compare Gramatica to Vinatieri prior to him tearing two abdominal muscles then yes, Gramatica WAS every bit as good as Vinatieri. However that was then and this is now and I don't see Gramatica being our starter.

 

[AzPatsFan]

What thin line? Hmmn

Mo,

No, its not on the thinnest of lines between winning and losing. It the thinnest of lines between having NO openings or weaknesses, and total solidity past first 53 on roster.

Find the glaring "holes" or even find the openings for the "double draft" upcoming this year in 2006 and also the "double draft" already locked in for 2007.

Please revciew the roster. I consider Blue/Red chippers to be solid starters with extensive starting history. To diffuse critiques about who is or is not a blue chipper versus a red chipper, so i have just lumped them together.

OL? Blue/red chippers: Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kayczur, Gorin?
White chippers: Hochstein, Tucker, Britt?
Jags: Yates, Roehl, Stietz
Gorin and Hochstein are both starters on multiple Super Bowl teams. Neither was exploited, so how bad can they be? And they are arguably the weakest players. Britt is a possible gem in the rough at RT.

WR? Blue /Red chippers: Branch, Brown(fading?),
White chippers: former second rounders Caldwell, Bethel Johnson rookie
Both Caldwelland BJ were talented high draft picksand aree young. Either or both might still establsih themselves as solid starter.

TE? Blue/Red Chippers: Graham, Watson,
White chipper: rook opening

RB? Blue/red chippers: Dillon, Faulk
White chippers: Pass, rook opening
Jag: Heath Evens

QBs? Blue/Red chippers Brady, Flutie(fading?), Cassells(rising?)
I could see the Patriots using a #4 on a Davey type developmental pick. I like Charlie Whitehurst. He has both the physical (size, big arm, and mental , (POISE, smarts) credentials; his dad was a pro QB, & coach, and is ready to get his Master's degree already. Do you see patterns for a BB/SP to like?

Net Net on Offense: One possible starting position at #2 WR; three reserve openings for TE, RB, QB

DL? Blue/Red chippers: Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Green
White Chippers: Hill, White, Thomas, Klecko. All are young, all have the credentials to be better and join the Red Chippers.

LBs? Blue/Red Chippers: Vrabel, Bruschi, Colvin
White Chippers: Beisel, TBC, Claridge(?), rook1, rook2

CBs? Blue/Red Chippers: Samuels, Gay, Hobbs, Scott, Warfield, Hawkins
White chippers: Poteat
Jags: Swann, Childress

Ss?: Blue/Red Chippers: Harrison, Wilson, Jones, Hawkins
White chippers: Sanders, G Scott
Jags: Ventrone

Net Net Defense: One starting OLB/DE, Two reserve OLBs, either ILB or OLB

ST: Red/Blue Chippers: Grammattica (K, KO), Miller (P), Paxton (LS), Izzo (Gunner), Mitchell (Gunner), Jones (Gunner), Johnson (KR), Brown (PR), rook PR
White Chippers: Davis, TBC, Sanders
Jags:

Net Net ST: Openings: rook/FA PR

So your thin line consists of 2 possible openings for starters at OLB andf #2 WR, but both have possible credentialed youth already available, and possible moveup in in Caldwell and TBC/Beisel with Vrabel position move. Other wise there are openings at reserve ILB/OLB. And a PR.

Obviously, great draftees can muscle their way onto the roster anywhere. The draft need only produce 1 starting quality LB and one eventual starting quality WR. (from 11 picks !) otherwise a reserve RB, and reserve LB or two. Not much to ask and a reason not to gointo a signing frenzy in FA, IMO.

Age? Oldest is One, 1 !, thirty one year old on starting Offense (Dillon)
Oldest is Two, 2!, starting thirty year olds. One 33 year old ILB/OLB (Bruschi) and 1 33 year old SS (Harrison).


So where exactly is your thin line??

This team even with 6 months of FA/trades and without the draft is strong enough to be the Super Bowl favorite... RIGHT NOW!

 

[JDSal45]

He had his surgery early in 2004 and yet despite getting tryouts last year, no one wanted him. Did you ever think that his surgery actually negatively affected his kicking? No, because IN BILL WE TRUST. But who cares, according to your loser research, he's just as good as Vinatieri.

Nice research. He had surgery in June of 2005. Is that an example of "loser research"? The injury was a problem until then and he didn't have much time to recover to play in 2005.

http://www.courant.com/sports/football/patriots/hc-patriots0411.artapr11,0,4830471.story?track=rss


J D Sal

 

[AzPatsFan]

He had his surgery early in 2004 and yet despite getting tryouts last year, no one wanted him. Did you ever think that his surgery actually negatively affected his kicking? No, because IN BILL WE TRUST. But who cares, according to your loser research, he's just as good as Vinatieri.

patriotrules,

Did you know that Vinatieri was a NFLE kicker, he had tryouts in the NFLE and no one wanted him. Obviously a B-U-M amd a never-do-well...

That history is about as significant as your post...

 

[Pats67]

Wow, you are actually comparing that joke Gramatica to Vinatieri. I mean, wow. I can't wait. I hope like hell this guy is our kicker because I can't wait to come back on here and listen to you all cry when he misses his first big kick. Comparing Gramatica to Vinatieri. Absolutely amazing how idiotic some of the statement by blind Patriots fans can be. If you think it's a good signing, fine but don't come on here throwing stupid stats around and compare this stiff to a possible future Hall of Famer. For once, I would love to see a post on here that isn't led by blind, stupid faith. Hey everyone, Gramatica is only 6% points behind Vinatieri. All is right with the world. What a joke.

PS Tedy Bruschi is good and Tom Brady is great and Beill belichick has never made a coaching mistake in his life. Oh yeah, and Martin Gramatica is going to the Hall of Fame because he has made 15 kicks in cold weather.

Yeah, we should all aspire to be critical thinkers just like you. Your posts are so full of 'facts' I don't know where to begin.

 

[Pats67]

He had his surgery early in 2004 and yet despite getting tryouts last year, no one wanted him. Did you ever think that his surgery actually negatively affected his kicking? No, because IN BILL WE TRUST. But who cares, according to your loser research, he's just as good as Vinatieri.

Let me hear some reasons why Patriots fans should NOT trust in the judgement of the only coach in their history to preside over a championship team (much less two more)?

See, if given a choice, I AM going to trust in THAT guy, not some irrational WEEI mouthbreather who's only happy when he's stirring sh**.

 

[Pats67]

So you hope we lose just so you can drive your little point home? Gotcha. And if you compare Gramatica to Vinatieri prior to him tearing two abdominal muscles then yes, Gramatica WAS every bit as good as Vinatieri. However that was then and this is now and I don't see Gramatica being our starter.

Yes, that's about it. Makes him a member in good standing of the Eddie Andleman-WEEI-Mike Barnicle-Dan Shaughnessy-Ron Borges school of True Boston Sports Fans, otherwise known as miserable, angry sh**heads that can't think their way out of a wet paper bag.

 

[spacecrime]

Wow, you are actually comparing that joke Gramatica to Vinatieri. I mean, wow. I can't wait. I hope like hell this guy is our kicker because I can't wait to come back on here and listen to you all cry when he misses his first big kick. Comparing Gramatica to Vinatieri. Absolutely amazing how idiotic some of the statement by blind Patriots fans can be. If you think it's a good signing, fine but don't come on here throwing stupid stats around and compare this stiff to a possible future Hall of Famer. For once, I would love to see a post on here that isn't led by blind, stupid faith. Hey everyone, Gramatica is only 6% points behind Vinatieri. All is right with the world. What a joke.

What is youkr problem here? What do you mean youk can't compare two players? Of course you can. How can you say AV is better than MG if youk don't compare the stats? Is there something about that that is beyond your comprehension?

No one said MG is better than AV. What was said was that when stats are compared, AV is better than MG is some stats (30-39) and MG is better in other states (49+).

When you say that when a guy misses a kick, you will come back and laugh, are you saying a missed kick in an important game is a sign of a failure? Because I need to point out AV's huge miss in the Denver game in the fourth quarter, not to mention TWO misses (one blocked) in the Carolina SB.

None of these three important misses in any way diminish AV's career. And a miss in a big game with the Colts will not prove the Pats right, nor a missed kick by MG will prove the Pats wrong. You do understand that AV being 67% from 30-39 means he missed one out of every three kicks he attempted at that range, correct?

I find it interesting to discuss the various levels of play of different athletes. It becomes less interesting when someone with no concept of stats says you can't compare players because one is so great he can't be compared to anyone else. If you were a fan 10 years ago, the chances are that you would not have wanted the NFLE kicker from So Dakota in place of Bahr. AV was a great kicker. It is not the end of the world that he no longer plays for the Pats.

Get over it.

 

[DaBruinz]

Gramatica is also 27-out-of-45 in his last two seasons, was out of football in 2005 and lifetime has connected on only 43 of 71 kicks beyond 39 yards. Great research but I guess you forgot to mention those facts, huh? Oh well, at least he can kick in the cold. As long as it's not over 39 yards.

Yeah and you forgot to mention that Gramatica was kicking with a sports hernia of some sort in 2003 and 2004. An injury that caused him to miss the entire 2005 season and that he just got fixed.

In 2003 and 2004, Gramatica was 4-13 from 40-49 yards and 2-4 beyond 50 yards. Prior to Gramatica's injury, that would make him 36 for 54. or 66% from beyond the 40. And, if you looked, Gramatica has hit 7 of his last 10 kicks from 50 yards or more.

BTW, if you ignore the two injury plagued years, Gramatica is a helluva lot better than you are claiming. And, from all accounts, he is kicking the way he did in 2002. Not the way he did in 2003 & 2004.

BTW, as someone pointed out in the thread about kickers, most kicks occur under 40 yards anyways.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Harrison Redux?

Nice research. He had surgery in June of 2005. Is that an example of "loser research"? The injury was a problem until then and he didn't have much time to recover to play in 2005.

http://www.courant.com/sports/football/patriots/hc-patriots0411.artapr11,0,4830471.story?track=rss


J D Sal

Repeat.

Not early 2004, but June 2005 and he couldn't hook up with a team (cold-weather Bears, knew him & gave him a tryout) in July, August 2005, only 30 to 60 days after abdominal surgery. The Bears were used to seeing him kick every year at snowy, cold and windy Soldier Field, and they weren't concerned abourt his ability in cold weather kicking.

Actually not a surprise, he didn't make the cut. I thought, he actually had two surgeries; the first didn't take, so they did it again, more than a year later.

The more I research this, the more I think this is a Rodney Harrison redux than anything else. It could be a major coup. Too bad they didn't get a two year deal, but if he makes it back they will have to re-sign him for bigger money.

 

[DaBruinz]

Wow, you are actually comparing that joke Gramatica to Vinatieri. I mean, wow. I can't wait. I hope like hell this guy is our kicker because I can't wait to come back on here and listen to you all cry when he misses his first big kick. Comparing Gramatica to Vinatieri. Absolutely amazing how idiotic some of the statement by blind Patriots fans can be. If you think it's a good signing, fine but don't come on here throwing stupid stats around and compare this stiff to a possible future Hall of Famer. For once, I would love to see a post on here that isn't led by blind, stupid faith. Hey everyone, Gramatica is only 6% points behind Vinatieri. All is right with the world. What a joke.

PS Tedy Bruschi is good and Tom Brady is great and Beill belichick has never made a coaching mistake in his life. Oh yeah, and Martin Gramatica is going to the Hall of Fame because he has made 15 kicks in cold weather.

Why don't you stop posting and start reading and comprehending things. Your inept attempts to make a point show that you are the one with the issue.

The fact remains that Gramatica is a low risk/ HIGH reward signing. You make it sound like the guy just plain stinks. You're ignorance over the fact that he had an injury that plagued him for two years (because it went undiagnosed) shows that you can't be bothered to deal with facts.

One of the biggest complaints about Vinatieri was his kick-offs. Because the opposing team would be starting around the 7-8 yard line for their runbacks. Gramatica, before his injury, was getting his kicks beyond the 5 yard line. That is more than 2 yards farther than Vinatieri. That can make a world of difference on field position. Gramatica also averages 1 touchback every 10 kicks. In comparison, Vinatieri averages 1 every 13 kicks.

 

[DaBruinz]

He had his surgery early in 2004 and yet despite getting tryouts last year, no one wanted him. Did you ever think that his surgery actually negatively affected his kicking? No, because IN BILL WE TRUST. But who cares, according to your loser research, he's just as good as Vinatieri.

Actually, This is false. Gramatica didn't have his surgery until June of 2005. Pretty amazing how you laid into others for their facts, but you didn't bother to check yours.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2096375

Now, about your statement about the surgery negatively affecting his kicking? Is it possible? Yes. However, I think that its not likely since he is supposedly kicking from beyond 50 yards with regularity.

http://www.boston.com/sports/footba...s_gramatica_signed_as_a_possible_replacement/

Hopefully, Gramatica, Paxton and Miller are working together already to get familiarized with one another.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Why don't you stop posting and start reading and comprehending things. Your inept attempts to make a point show that you are the one with the issue.

The fact remains that Gramatica is a low risk/ HIGH reward signing. You make it sound like the guy just plain stinks. You're ignorance over the fact that he had an injury that plagued him for two years (because it went undiagnosed) shows that you can't be bothered to deal with facts.

One of the biggest complaints about Vinatieri was his kick-offs. Because the opposing team would be starting around the 7-8 yard line for their runbacks. Gramatica, before his injury, was getting his kicks beyond the 5 yard line. That is more than 2 yards farther than Vinatieri. That can make a world of difference on field position. Gramatica also averages 1 touchback every 10 kicks. In comparison, Vinatieri averages 1 every 13 kicks.

It would probably behoove us all to post less and read and comprehend more...but that said signing Gramatica is low risk, although the jury will remain out on the reward part for some time. The risk was in creating a vacancy where none need exist.

Oddly people tend to refer to Gramatica (when he is right) as having a stronger leg - or Adam having a weaker one. Not apparently true. In their first 4 seasons their kickoff numbers were pretty close - 63 yards per with 8 touchbacks for AV and 63.4 yards with 6 touchbacks for MG. Although one was kicking in the NE and the other in Tampa, and that climate routinely adds 2-4 yards to Adams KO's. In the last two years each kicked off, on kickoffs alone AV averaged 62.3 yards per with 8 touchbacks while MG kicking off either for TB or Indy averaged 61.4 yards and 6 touchbacks. Of course Gramatica did kick in cold weather - 3 games out of 78 over 5 seasons from 1999 through 2003 featured temperatures at game time below 40 degrees. None of those featured snow or any freezing form of precipitation for that matter. Sure there was college in Kansas, but college games are generally over in early December and while it's often blustery it's just not generally terribly cold there that time of year.

Adam actually had the 3rd longest KO average in the league last year among cold weather kickers - and there are roughly 14 of whom who could be considered cold weather based kickers. His 61.7 was only bested by the NYG Feeley (63.4) and Denver's Sauerbraun (65.4). And of course Denver is a little different still because of the thin air - even old rag legged AV posted a 9 KO average of 64.5 yards in the Mile High city last season. And when you compare his numbers in some of the warmer venues, he generally equals or betters their kickers distances (like say in Carolina (67.5) or Miami (68.3) even in 2005 in his approaching dotage.

I also think if you ignore a players injuries, you are just asking for it. Adam never missed a game in 10 years. He had some back problems in 2003 but he played through them, and pretty well as our Lombardi collection will attest. And while MG kicked well in the playoffs, he only ever kicked 5 game winners compared to AV's 20. Gramatica had hernia surgery following the 2003 season. Then he was worse in 2004. Seems odd to say the least that the Bucs would just give up on a guy dubbed Automatica, whom they had less signed 18 months earlier to a $12M deal that resulted in a 2005 $2M dead cap hit to a franchise in cap hell at the time, without leaving no stone unturned to salvage their investment. Which leads me to believe they may have felt there was something more afoot in Tampa so to speak than another undiagnosed abdominal problem. Reportedly past and present Bucs players when asked about him after his release spoke of questioning his mental toughness. Probably just scapegoating and sour grapes, but AV was the rare kicker whom his teamates felt was a football player and not just the kicker. And I guarantee you you could not find a guy in that locker room today who wouldn't echo what BB consistently said during their years together - that there was no other kicker he would rather have.

I know he's reportedly kicking well now on practice fields in Florida with his therapist at his side. I'm happy for him. But that's about the equivalent of these college QB's making all the throws at the combine - the same ones they cannot make in game situations at the NFL level. We really don't know if Gramatica just stinks, but we will eventually find out.

 

[JDSal45]

It would probably behoove us all to post less and read and comprehend more...but that said signing Gramatica is low risk, although the jury will remain out on the reward part for some time. The risk was in creating a vacancy where none need exist.

Oddly people tend to refer to Gramatica (when he is right) as having a stronger leg - or Adam having a weaker one. Not apparently true. In their first 4 seasons their kickoff numbers were pretty close - 63 yards per with 8 touchbacks for AV and 63.4 yards with 6 touchbacks for MG. Although one was kicking in the NE and the other in Tampa, and that climate routinely adds 2-4 yards to Adams KO's. In the last two years each kicked off, on kickoffs alone AV averaged 62.3 yards per with 8 touchbacks while MG kicking off either for TB or Indy averaged 61.4 yards and 6 touchbacks. Of course Gramatica did kick in cold weather - 3 games out of 78 over 5 seasons from 1999 through 2003 featured temperatures at game time below 40 degrees. None of those featured snow or any freezing form of precipitation for that matter. Sure there was college in Kansas, but college games are generally over in early December and while it's often blustery it's just not generally terribly cold there that time of year.

Gee, the signing is low risk. I think that was my point. I noticed you didn't respond to my post requesting you list the misses you claim.

And here are the game time temps of some games he played:

12/24/2000 at Green Bay 15 degrees. Gramatica was 2-3

http://www.buccaneers.com/team/gamesummary.aspx?header=history&listid=gamestats&gamedate=12/24/2000

11/19/2000 at Chicago 37 degrees. Gramatica was 1-1

http://www.buccaneers.com/team/gamesummary.aspx?header=history&listid=gamestats&gamedate=11/19/2000

12/29/2002 at Chicago 38 degrees. Gramatica was 5-5

http://www.buccaneers.com/team/gamesummary.aspx?header=history&listid=gamestats&gamedate=12/29/2002

12/31/2000 at Philadelphia 34 degrees. Gramatica was 1-1

http://www.buccaneers.com/team/gamesummary.aspx?header=&listid=gamestats&gamedate=12/31/2000

1/19/2003 at Philadelphia 27 degrees. Gramatica was 2-2

http://www.buccaneers.com/team/gamesummary.aspx?header=&listid=gamestats&gamedate=1/19/2003

Weren't you the one who said my research was faulty? That looks like 5 games at least that drop below your chosen line of 40, not 3. And Gramatica 11-12 in those games. Thanks for proving my point and your agenda.

J D Sal

 

[shakadave]

No one said MG is better than AV. What was said was that when stats are compared, AV is better than MG is some stats (30-39) and MG is better in other states (49+).

While it's true that there are 49 other states (+Puerto Rico, etc.) what matters most is what MG does in Massachusetts. That will be over half of his workload, assuming some home playoff games. Plus, admittedly many other states don't have NFL teams.

 

[dryheat44]

While it's true that there are 49 other states (+Puerto Rico, etc.) what matters most is what MG does in Massachusetts. That will be over half of his workload, assuming some home playoff games. Plus, admittedly many other states don't have NFL teams.

Nor Puerto Rico.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Gee, the signing is low risk. I think that was my point. I noticed you didn't respond to my post requesting you list the misses you claim.

And here are the game time temps of some games he played:

12/24/2000 at Green Bay 15 degrees. Gramatica was 2-3

http://www.buccaneers.com/team/gamesummary.aspx?header=history&listid=gamestats&gamedate=12/24/2000

11/19/2000 at Chicago 37 degrees. Gramatica was 1-1

http://www.buccaneers.com/team/gamesummary.aspx?header=history&listid=gamestats&gamedate=11/19/2000

12/29/2002 at Chicago 38 degrees. Gramatica was 5-5

http://www.buccaneers.com/team/gamesummary.aspx?header=history&listid=gamestats&gamedate=12/29/2002

12/31/2000 at Philadelphia 34 degrees. Gramatica was 1-1

http://www.buccaneers.com/team/gamesummary.aspx?header=&listid=gamestats&gamedate=12/31/2000

1/19/2003 at Philadelphia 27 degrees. Gramatica was 2-2

http://www.buccaneers.com/team/gamesummary.aspx?header=&listid=gamestats&gamedate=1/19/2003

Weren't you the one who said my research was faulty? That looks like 5 games at least that drop below your chosen line of 40, not 3. And Gramatica 11-12 in those games. Thanks for proving my point and your agenda.

J D Sal

I was looking at the games you mentioned in (apparently) your own agenda-less article. The game you cited there from 2003 was December 28th at Tennessee (not January 19th at Philadelphia as you are claiming here) - where they provided no weather data so I made a reasonable assumption.

And I originally picked up the December 29, 2002 game as 2001 - a 68 degree game where oddly enough the Tampa kicker was 3-5, although turns out Doug Brien kicked for Tampa that day.

Bottom line, whether it's 3 or 4 or 5 games under 40 degrees in a six year career, that has to represent one of the weakest cold weather kicking veteran resume's in the NFL. Your agenda was to somehow prove an apparently broadbased perception wrong, and IMHO it fell way short.

We all have underlying agendas Sal - they are the underpinnings of whatever we choose to believe, and what we base our opinions on. How often we weigh in on a subject or how may times we initiate a topic are just indications of how strong our underlying opinion is or what level of determination we may have to drive an agenda. When I read a post or thread I believe is misconstruing a circumstance I dive in. But I haven't started any AV threads to drive my agenda.

http://www.buccaneers.com/team/gamesummary.aspx?header=&listid=gamestats&gamedate=12/28/2003

 

[JDSal45]

I was looking at the games you mentioned in (apparently) your own agenda-less article. The game you cited there from 2003 was December 28th at Tennessee (not January 19th at Philadelphia as you are claiming here) - where they provided no weather data so I made a reasonable assumption.

And I originally picked up the December 29, 2002 game as 2001 - a 68 degree game where oddly enough the Tampa kicker was 3-5, although turns out Doug Brien kicked for Tampa that day.

Bottom line, whether it's 3 or 4 or 5 games under 40 degrees in a six year career, that has to represent one of the weakest cold weather kicking veteran resume's in the NFL. Your agenda was to somehow prove an apparently broadbased perception wrong, and IMHO it fell way short.

We all have underlying agendas Sal - they are the underpinnings of whatever we choose to believe, and what we base our opinions on. How often we weigh in on a subject or how may times we initiate a topic are just indications of how strong our underlying opinion is or what level of determination we may have to drive an agenda. When I read a post or thread I believe is misconstruing a circumstance I dive in. But I haven't started any AV threads to drive my agenda.

http://www.buccaneers.com/team/gamesummary.aspx?header=&listid=gamestats&gamedate=12/28/2003

So in other words, you were wrong. Thanks for conceding it. And when you said 3 games, you weren't responding to me, you were responding to another poster. And you misrepresented the facts in making your argument. That is the bottom line.

And one of the weakest resumes in the NFL? Give me a break. He was 11-12 in those games and of course you highlighted the one miss in your initial post.

Ridiculous.

J D Sal

 

[MoLewisrocks]

So in other words, you were wrong. Thanks for conceding it. And when you said 3 games, you weren't responding to me, you were responding to another poster. And you misrepresented the facts in making your argument. That is the bottom line.

And one of the weakest resumes in the NFL? Give me a break. He was 11-12 in those games and of course you highlighted the one miss in your initial post.

Ridiculous.

J D Sal

I could just as easily say you misrepresented your entire premise from the outset because the stats you were referencing - from an article you apparently wrote yourself - were not backed up by the appropriate game dates in one case, your concept of what constituted cold weather was beyond ridiculous by Patriot standards in 5 of the 9 instances you originally cited (the very first game you cite had a gametime temp of 58 degrees), and you can cherry pick stats 'til hell freezes over and they aren't going to make a guy with 10 or 12 total career cold weather attempts out of 179 total attempts over 6 years a cold weather kicker. Particularly when the one he missed cost them a division title in regulation on the way to a road WC loss. And in the 5 sub 40 degree games you citeTampa went 2-3, and the only game among those in which Gramatica made the winning kick was a onesided 15-0 shutout against the Bears where each of his 5 kicks averaged just about 31 yards. Around here lately the anti-Vinatieri faction routinely labled those pressureless chip shots any decent kicker should have made.

You and I are just going to have to agree to disagree where Gramatica's perception is concerned. Wouldn't be the first time I am sure, and likely won't be the last. Be my guest on the last word while your at it.