Goodell wants existing rule on FA tampering enforced

[Joker]

Good post but I'm not sure I agree with you. There's gamesmanship and then there's gaining a competitive advantage. I'm all for gamesmanship (done with respect), totally against a team doing something to gain a competitive advantage.

pao

so...you're against YOUR OWN TEAM then...the Merry Steroiders led by Pumpkinhead Merriman....you sure do have some unbelievably lofty standards when it comes to your sports teams.....is the rest of your life spent aspiring to the finest, tip top of everything possible? We're just Patriot fans here and as such are probably below someone of YOUR exalted and prodigiously righteous position in life. Do us a favor, apply these strict standards to the little things like your handle....pao just doesn't do it for someone so astute and discerning...perhaps Ka Pao The Insufferably Arrogant, Intergalactically Inane And Imperious Inquisitor would be sufficient...

 

[JoeSixPat]

A team with a better nutritionist, better facilities, better weight room, etc... has a competitive advantage too...

Well of course, but is there a rule against it?

That of course is the context of this discussion so I'm not quite sure what point you're making.

Seems to me in the NFL the tradition is of pushing right up to the limits of what's legal - and it always has been. Some teams even break rules.

Far be it from any fan to say what rules are "ok" to be broken.

What I think any fan can say is that if a Coach finds a loophole, more power to him... what seems to piss everyone off is that Belichick found a very big loophole and exploited that - and then the NFL changed the rules, caught him and vilified him, with a good number of people calling him a cheater.

Yet at the end of the day, that very sort of "cheating" goes back a long long way with many many teams doing exactly the same thing. Most fans - and the NFL in general - just can't or won't bring themselves to accept that because that makes them hypocrits.

 

[Deus Irae]

Well of course, but is there a rule against it?

That of course is the context of this discussion so I'm not quite sure what point you're making.

Seems to me in the NFL the tradition is of pushing right up to the limits of what's legal - and it always has been. Some teams even break rules.

Far be it from any fan to say what rules are "ok" to be broken.

What I think any fan can say is that if a Coach finds a loophole, more power to him... what seems to piss everyone off is that Belichick found a very big loophole and exploited that - and then the NFL changed the rules, caught him and vilified him, with a good number of people calling him a cheater.

Yet at the end of the day, that very sort of "cheating" goes back a long long way with many many teams doing exactly the same thing. Most fans - and the NFL in general - just can't or won't bring themselves to accept that because that makes them hypocrits.

My post was in response to Pao's post. It was limited to that only.

 

[BPF]

Good post but I'm not sure I agree with you. There's gamesmanship and then there's gaining a competitive advantage. I'm all for gamesmanship (done with respect), totally against a team doing something to gain a competitive advantage.

pao

A team w/Kraft, BB & Pioli in charge has a competitive advantage over say the Cinci Bengals FO and their very small scouting staff because the Brown family refuses to hire more scouts. The Cowboys and their cash due to market have a competitive advantage over the Bills.

 

[BPF]

Well of course, but is there a rule against it?

That of course is the context of this discussion so I'm not quite sure what point you're making.

Seems to me in the NFL the tradition is of pushing right up to the limits of what's legal - and it always has been. Some teams even break rules.

Far be it from any fan to say what rules are "ok" to be broken.

What I think any fan can say is that if a Coach finds a loophole, more power to him... what seems to piss everyone off is that Belichick found a very big loophole and exploited that - and then the NFL changed the rules, caught him and vilified him, with a good number of people calling him a cheater.

Yet at the end of the day, that very sort of "cheating" goes back a long long way with many many teams doing exactly the same thing. Most fans - and the NFL in general - just can't or won't bring themselves to accept that because that makes them hypocrits.

Well written.

 

[pao]

BUT if that was teh case...a LOT more would have been done...and there have been numerous chances for him to step in and male rulings..OR really investigate further..and back up his words of "fairness' with a real zeal FOR that. He has done NOTHING when he has opportunities..words yes..actions NONE..except against the Pats..NOTHING to investigate the piped in crowd noise..or the refs in teh Colts game..or the charge that some teams overcome teh blackout of QB to coach time...OR??

You are absolutely right. I have been frustrated by his inaction too. Ridiculous.

sdfan

 

[pao]

A team with a better nutritionist, better facilities, better weight room, etc... has a competitive advantage too...

So you don't see the difference?

sdfan

 

[Deus Irae]

So you don't see the difference?

sdfan

There isn't one other than the bad decision of a lousy commissioner.

 

[pao]

so...you're against YOUR OWN TEAM then...

Just because I am for rule breakers being disciplined for their actions FOR THE GOOD OF THE LEAGUE doesn't mean I'm against "my own team". I discipline my kids, doesn't mean I'm against them.

...the Merry Steroiders led by Pumpkinhead Merriman

Merriman got caught, served his suspension, and has been tested clean since. He got what he deserved and hopefully learned from it. Bad for the Chargers, good for the league.

....you sure do have some unbelievably lofty standards when it comes to your sports teams.....is the rest of your life spent aspiring to the finest, tip top of everything possible?

Hmmm, hopefully. Something wrong with that? I mean is it so wrong to want them to play by the rules? To play a team in their house, where they already have a fair homefield advantage, without having to deal with piped in noise? To have a chance to sign a player at the beginning of the FA period without some other team signing that player to a complex contract worth millions of dollars 5 minutes into the period? If that is your definition of "lofty standards" then the answer to your question is YES.

We're just Patriot fans here and as such are probably below someone of YOUR exalted and prodigiously righteous position in life

. I think you are selling some of your Patriot Brothers short.

Do us a favor, apply these strict standards to the little things like your handle....pao just doesn't do it for someone so astute and discerning...perhaps Ka Pao The Insufferably Arrogant, Intergalactically Inane And Imperious Inquisitor would be sufficient...

You may address me so if you wish, my son. Please bow as you do it though. By the way, I'm not signing here as pao anymore due to another member's sensitivity to my using his favorite soccer team's initials (or something of the sort) so you may want to come up with some new exalted name.

sdfan

 

[pao]

Well of course, but is there a rule against it?

That of course is the context of this discussion so I'm not quite sure what point you're making.

Seems to me in the NFL the tradition is of pushing right up to the limits of what's legal - and it always has been. Some teams even break rules.

Far be it from any fan to say what rules are "ok" to be broken.

What I think any fan can say is that if a Coach finds a loophole, more power to him... what seems to piss everyone off is that Belichick found a very big loophole and exploited that - and then the NFL changed the rules, caught him and vilified him, with a good number of people calling him a cheater.

Yet at the end of the day, that very sort of "cheating" goes back a long long way with many many teams doing exactly the same thing. Most fans - and the NFL in general - just can't or won't bring themselves to accept that because that makes them hypocrits.

Excellent post.

sdfan

 

[pao]

A team w/Kraft, BB & Pioli in charge has a competitive advantage over say the Cinci Bengals FO and their very small scouting staff because the Brown family refuses to hire more scouts. The Cowboys and their cash due to market have a competitive advantage over the Bills.

All of those things are within the rules. I can't believe you guys are missing the distinction. The FO is part of the team and what I mean by I want my team to play your team man up. AJ Smith is better than Matt Millen, he puts better players on the field. That's part of the game my friend. As for the Cowboys cash vs the Bills cash? That's the reason for the salary cap (I know there's more to it than that, but that is obviously a biggie, I mean look at the Yankees/Red Sox. Now there is a cash competitive advantage...albeit within the rules).

sdfan

 

[Deus Irae]

All of those things are within the rules. I can't believe you guys are missing the distinction. The FO is part of the team and what I mean by I want my team to play your team man up. AJ Smith is better than Matt Millen, he puts better players on the field. That's part of the game my friend. As for the Cowboys cash vs the Bills cash? That's the reason for the salary cap (I know there's more to it than that, but that is obviously a biggie, I mean look at the Yankees/Red Sox. Now there is a cash competitive advantage...albeit within the rules).

sdfan

Your argument doesn't work. What BB did was 'within the rules' for years, until a new Commissioner interpreted/enforced the rule differently than the old Commissioner. The basic notion of stealing signals is not outside the rules, either.

It's not that people hear are missing the distinction, it's that you're creating one that has never been there.

 

[pao]

Your argument doesn't work. What BB did was 'within the rules' for years, until a new Commissioner interpreted/enforced the rule differently than the old Commissioner. The basic notion of stealing signals is not outside the rules, either.

It's not that people hear are missing the distinction, it's that you're creating one that has never been there.

I was speaking in general about the entire NFL, not specifically about Spygate. I am done with Spygate. BB and franchise were "caught", disciplined, haven't done it again and that's good enough for me (right or wrong). Time to move on. I am talking about the rest of the NFL and cheating. I am for the NFL getting tough on those caught cheating, to actively investigate suspicion, and to discipline those determined guilty. I want my team to play your team straight up, may the best team win, without cheating...just as the Patriots have beat the Chargers 3 straight times. On the field, no cheating. I don't like the result but they were fair contests.

pao

 

[Deus Irae]

I was speaking in general about the entire NFL, not specifically about Spygate. I am done with Spygate. BB and franchise were "caught", disciplined, haven't done it again and that's good enough for me (right or wrong). Time to move on. I am talking about the rest of the NFL and cheating. I am for the NFL getting tough on those caught cheating, to actively investigate suspicion, and to discipline those determined guilty. I want my team to play your team straight up, may the best team win, without cheating...just as the Patriots have beat the Chargers 3 straight times. On the field, no cheating. I don't like the result but they were fair contests.

pao

When you try to enforce the unenforceable, you get the results that happened during prohibition, and the rules become a complete joke. Tampering rules are unenforceable except in obvious cases.

 

[JoeSixPat]

When you try to enforce the unenforceable, you get the results that happened during prohibition, and the rules become a complete joke. Tampering rules are unenforceable except in obvious cases.

Right - the standard that Goodell is setting by trying to enforce unenforceable rules is that he's ok with breaking rules as long as its not blatant, i.e. as long as it doesn't embarrass HIM.

THAT'S the standard that Goodell is attempting to establish here, seeing as there's no real way to police that rule and the "fairest" thing to do as such is ensure that all teams have an even playing field.

I'm not opposed to Goodell enforcing rules, but let's not make him out to be a white knight - this move establishes him as a hypocrit.

Bringing this back to Spygate, given the fact that the NFL doesn't prohibit signal stealing (i.e. what most ignorant or hypocritcal fans call "cheating") and the fact that they actually ALLOW the taping of games, we have ANOTHER un-enforceable rule.

Given the prevelance of telescopic microphones and telephoto lenses, how does Goodell know that the "legal" videotaping of games from the stands isn't providing exactly the same competitive advantage that he and so many others decry re: Spygate?

Does he check every tape? Did he check the alleged illegal tape that MangIdiot acquired without the permission of the Patriots?

So here again, Goodell establishes the grandiose "standard" not of standing up for fair play - as the fairest thing to for unenforceable rules is ensure everyone is on an even playing field - he's simply opposed to blatant "cheating" that serves to embarrass him personally.

That's the state of the NFL and while this dog and pony show won't fool many Patriots fans, there's a lot of ignorant and hypocritical fans who will buy into his charade.

 

[Joker]

new handle for pao?

OK...how about POW..out go da lights...heh heh heh

 

[pao]

There isn't one other than the bad decision of a lousy commissioner.

I think you misunderstand what I am saying. I am against a team gaining a competitive advantage due to breaking rules, i.e. cheating. I am not against teams gaining a competitive advantage through hard work, efficiency, or being smarter than other teams WITHIN THE RULES. See the differerance? I'm pretty sure you agree with me in that regard.

sdfan

 

[pao]

When you try to enforce the unenforceable, you get the results that happened during prohibition, and the rules become a complete joke.

I submit that there are very few rules that are "unenforceable" in the NFL. If there are unenforceable rules then they can be changed to be enforceable or more limiting as to the ability of teams to circumvent them. Otherwise what would you suggest? Just let teams do whatever the hell they want? That's not good enough for me.

Tampering rules are unenforceable except in obvious cases.

So do you think that he should just step back and let teams do whatever they feel like? Not me, my friend, not me. If you are right and they are unenforceable then change it to be more easily enforced. One of your Patriot fan brothers had a good idea in another thread about how to make FA tampering more dificult if not more enforceable. Simply make it against the rules to sign a FA until 72 hours (or whatever) after the FA signing period has started. That way, even though it may still be tough to enforce, it will give teams that do not participate in tampering a chance to contact players and their agents before they sign with a team that has tampered with them. Beside that this is a VERY narrow example within the broad spectrum of rules. I am talking about enforcing all the rules. Enforce the rules so that it's man on man, my team against yours.May the best organisation win, not the best organisation to get around or break the rules.

pao

 

[pao]

Right - the standard that Goodell is setting by trying to enforce unenforceable rules is that he's ok with breaking rules as long as its not blatant, i.e. as long as it doesn't embarrass HIM.

THAT'S the standard that Goodell is attempting to establish here, seeing as there's no real way to police that rule and the "fairest" thing to do as such is ensure that all teams have an even playing field.

I'm not opposed to Goodell enforcing rules, but let's not make him out to be a white knight - this move establishes him as a hypocrit.

Bringing this back to Spygate, given the fact that the NFL doesn't prohibit signal stealing (i.e. what most ignorant or hypocritcal fans call "cheating") and the fact that they actually ALLOW the taping of games, we have ANOTHER un-enforceable rule.

Given the prevelance of telescopic microphones and telephoto lenses, how does Goodell know that the "legal" videotaping of games from the stands isn't providing exactly the same competitive advantage that he and so many others decry re: Spygate?

Does he check every tape? Did he check the alleged illegal tape that MangIdiot acquired without the permission of the Patriots?

So here again, Goodell establishes the grandiose "standard" not of standing up for fair play - as the fairest thing to for unenforceable rules is ensure everyone is on an even playing field - he's simply opposed to blatant "cheating" that serves to embarrass him personally.

That's the state of the NFL and while this dog and pony show won't fool many Patriots fans, there's a lot of ignorant and hypocritical fans who will buy into his charade.

I see your point. But what I want from the commisioner, whether it be Goodell or someone else, is a force against breaking the rules set up to keep one team from gaining a competitive advantage over another. We'll see if Goodell is the guy or not going forward. Until it is history we won't know. Until now the guy has made many missteps for whatever reason. We'll see how he does from here on, and he will be judged on that.

sdfan

 

[Deus Irae]

I think you misunderstand what I am saying. I am against a team gaining a competitive advantage due to breaking rules, i.e. cheating. I am not against teams gaining a competitive advantage through hard work, efficiency, or being smarter than other teams WITHIN THE RULES. See the differerance? I'm pretty sure you agree with me in that regard.

sdfan

I don't think I'm misunderstanding anything, although you seem to be missing something. What New England did was within the rules (as practiced for years and, at least in practice, as interpreted by the prior Commissioner), but they were punished for it anyway. Stealing signs is within the rules. The tampering rules are unenforceable except in the most obvious of cases. This notion that teams aren't acting within the rules and are doing things which Commissioner Clouseau will be able to stop is simply not backed up by the current publicly known data.