Good Read From Steve on Vereen and White

[Ian]

He posted this earlier, it's a good look at both players and their potential effect on the passing game.

Vereen And White Should Give The Patriots A Boost In The Passing Game | Pats Pub

 

[mayoclinic]

The most interesting part to me is this:

White could be looked at as Vereen’s eventual replacement as he, Ridley and Bolden all enter the final year of their contracts, but the Patriots also have the option of using both in a two-back set in their “20” or “21” personnel packages that give them great options in the passing game.

I believe that OTA/minicamp rules prohibit the media from commenting on specific schemes and formations used, but there have been rumors and innuendos (mostly from Mike Reiss) that the Pats were using a lot of "20" and "21" personnel packages during those spring practices. There was a Patspulpit fan series of articles recently which speculated about the "2-flexback" (to use Grid's term for RBs who can function as all-purpose backs in the passing game) package having an impact the way the 2-TE offense swept the NFL in 2010-2012:

Predicting the next unpredictable: Split Backs formation (part 1) - Pats Pulpit
Predicting the next unpredictable: Split Backs formation (part 2) - Pats Pulpit
Predicting the next unpredictable: Split Backs formation (part 3) - Pats Pulpit

The ability to have 2 backs with receiving ability who can block on the field and line up in different formations opens up a lot of possibilities. Chip Kelly has been ahead of the curve with this one, using a lot of motion into- and out of the backfield at times, and we should see Philly do a lot of this with Shady McCoy and Darren Sproles.

 

[patchick]

The ability to have 2 backs with receiving ability who can block on the field and line up in different formations opens up a lot of possibilities. Chip Kelly has been ahead of the curve with this one, using a lot of motion into- and out of the backfield at times, and we should see Philly do a lot of this with Shady McCoy and Darren Sproles.

I'm looking forward to this too, and White and Vereen make a particularly intriguing pair for it since they're both >200 lbs. rather than the miniature scatback type. Plus White is the rare rookie RB who I'd actually trust in pass protection.

 

[mayoclinic]

I'm looking forward to this too, and White and Vereen make a particularly intriguing pair for it since they're both >200 lbs. rather than the miniature scatback type. Plus White is the rare rookie RB who I'd actually trust in pass protection.

Both White and Vereen both have solid pass protection skills, which I think is key. So did Danny Woodhead for that matter, even though he was more of the typical "scatback" (though close to 200#).

If Hernandez' alleged sins had come to light earlier, I'm sure the Pats would have managed to keep Woodhead and used him along with Vereen to pick up some of the slack. One of many things that went wrong last year.

 

[james87654]

i like this idea....just as i liked the tight-end scheme, and their offensive ingenuity in general.....but i wish they could find an outside WR and it seems like our rocket science offense rules out a lot of potential WRs who just cant get it.....do i blame nfl WRs for not being smart enough or the patriots for possibly over intellectualizing a game of chemically enhanced guys hitting each other

 

[signbabybrady]

i like this idea....just as i liked the tight-end scheme, and their offensive ingenuity in general.....but i wish they could find an outside WR and it seems like our rocket science offense rules out a lot of potential WRs who just cant get it.....do i blame nfl WRs for not being smart enough or the patriots for possibly over intellectualizing a game of chemically enhanced guys hitting each other

I blame Brady this is his system now he knows it so well and I think it can be hard for anyone to catch up to him and know it the way he does plus I think he unintentionally puts guys in the dog house if they aren't on the same page and game reps vanish for those who dont know.

He didn't have much choice last year but to use the rookies so hopefully this pays off this year.

 

[james87654]

I blame Brady this is his system now he knows it so well and I think it can be hard for anyone to catch up to him and know it the way he does plus I think he unintentionally puts guys in the dog house if they aren't on the same page and game reps vanish for those who dont know.

He didn't have much choice last year but to use the rookies so hopefully this pays off this year.

fair enough, but be careful, criticizing brady is dangerous in these parts...

for a while i thought BB was almost becoming bobby knight....determined to show that he could win his way with his system and his (inferior) talent.........but then i think he realized that wasnt the case and started taking more chances with personnel, hence Ahern.......he wants everyone to be like bruschi but they're not....and he knows he has to have talent to win........a significant portion of the superbowl teams predated BB......he got lucky with brady, made good picks in seymour and light.......and off we went

fine line between getting the "talented" guy and the "patriot way" guy and often one doesnt even know which will work out better

 

[supafly]

i like this idea....just as i liked the tight-end scheme, and their offensive ingenuity in general.....but i wish they could find an outside WR and it seems like our rocket science offense rules out a lot of potential WRs who just cant get it.....do i blame nfl WRs for not being smart enough or the patriots for possibly over intellectualizing a game of chemically enhanced guys hitting each other

I think we've seen the more complex and cerebral offensive system work wonders here, James.

For that I would guess that it's a difficult system to learn for sure, which limits the odds of an NCAA wide receiver doing as well in this particular system. I certainly wouldn't "blame" the coaches or Brady for expecting them to put in more hours of hard work and practice time, but I think we can understand why the odds are lessened here. I think the playbook and various nuances alone are fairly difficult to pick up--at least in comparison to some other teams, anyway.

It's a timing system, and also a scheme that is heavy on pre-snap reads, and being on the exact same page as Tom Brady. Sometimes one guy sees or thinks he sees one thing, while the other sees something slightly different. The fact that we've seen some good talent such as Chad Johnson, Torry Holt, and Joey Galloway fail (not all at the same exact level and for the same exact reasoning) tells me that it's something that is going to come down to practice and film study; and many, many hours of both.

While we haven't exactly hit homeruns in the draft with the WR talent (putting it mildly), I also think that we've done very well with significantly lesser talent in some aspects, which has helped to balance things out a bit. Of course, not everyone will agree with my personal assessment, but this is what I'm seeing.

 

[supafly]

I blame Brady this is his system now he knows it so well and I think it can be hard for anyone to catch up to him and know it the way he does plus I think he unintentionally puts guys in the dog house if they aren't on the same page and game reps vanish for those who dont know.

He didn't have much choice last year but to use the rookies so hopefully this pays off this year.

I think Brady, JMcD, and Belichick have very high expectations, and for good reasons. They have a proven method that normally equates to putting the team in a good situation to improve their odds of winning games. That aspect alone means that they'll put the best players and scheme out there depending on specific gameplanning for the opponent that week.

If someone isn't "getting it," they are going to switch things up so that they place the team in the best position to win by changing out to other players. In other words, it's probably a rare situation where someone gets "coddled" here in an attempt to sit back and continuously watch their mistakes, in a hope that they can eventually overcome those in live game rep settings. Not only is it unfair to the team itself, it'd be rather silly in my opinion.

Of course last year was a bit different, but that was mainly due to a lack of overall talent + injury (and arrest) situations. Last year we likely saw just about as much coddling with the rookies as we've seen in quite some time. I would not expect that to take place again this year, and it may come down to some of the reasoning that we keep more WRs than normal, with a hope that a guy like Gallon can stick on the PS and get a season of film study and good practice habits under his belt. If the WRs are not getting the job done, we need to be in a much better position than last year when we were "stuck" with such poor and limited talent.

 

[james87654]

I think we've seen the more complex and cerebral offensive system work wonders here, James.

For that I would guess that it's a difficult system to learn for sure, which limits the odds of an NCAA wide receiver doing as well in this particular system. I certainly wouldn't "blame" the coaches or Brady for expecting them to put in more hours of hard work and practice time, but I think we can understand why the odds are lessened here. I think the playbook and various nuances alone are fairly difficult to pick up--at least in comparison to some other teams, anyway.

It's a timing system, and also a scheme that is heavy on pre-snap reads, and being on the exact same page as Tom Brady. Sometimes one guy sees or thinks he sees one thing, while the other sees something slightly different. The fact that we've seen some good talent such as Chad Johnson, Torry Holt, and Joey Galloway fail (not all at the same exact level and for the same exact reasoning) tells me that it's something that is going to come down to practice and film study; and many, many hours of both.

While we haven't exactly hit homeruns in the draft with the WR talent (putting it mildly), I also think that we've done very well with significantly lesser talent in some aspects, which has helped to balance things out a bit. Of course, not everyone will agree with my personal assessment, but this is what I'm seeing.

All things considered, i think youre right.....and that our system has been a net positive.....im hoping dobson can be that legit #1 that we havent had since moss......i wish his hands were bigger.....big hands on WRs are good....like fitzgerald etc.......time will tell

 

[ausbacker]

All things considered, i think youre right.....and that our system has been a net positive.....im hoping dobson can be that legit #1 that we havent had since moss......i wish his hands were bigger.....big hands on WRs are good....like fitzgerald etc.......time will tell

I couldn't give a stuff about the size of Dobson's hands. His college highlight reel would be at home in Montreal as part of a Cirque production. He needs to stay healthy and assume the role of the #1 wide out.

 

[Patjew]

All things considered, i think youre right.....and that our system has been a net positive.....im hoping dobson can be that legit #1 that we havent had since moss......i wish his hands were bigger.....big hands on WRs are good....like fitzgerald etc.......time will tell

James, you seem like a helluva nice guy and good poster. No joke.

 

[james87654]

James, you seem like a helluva nice guy and good poster. No joke.

thats very kind of you......i appreciate it

 

[patriot1136]

With Vereen and White, does that mean Stephen Houston and Bolden are cut?

 

[Nunchucks]

I think the Patriots will want to keep two larger sized running backs.

 

[upstater1]

I blame Brady this is his system now he knows it so well and I think it can be hard for anyone to catch up to him and know it the way he does plus I think he unintentionally puts guys in the dog house if they aren't on the same page and game reps vanish for those who dont know.

He didn't have much choice last year but to use the rookies so hopefully this pays off this year.

Our wide receivers are not very good.

It looks so much easier when Peyton Manning is throwing to #1 guys, doesn't it?

Players like Reggie Wayne and Pierre Garcon and Demaryious Thomas have proven they can do it when they play with Peyton Manning, but also when they play with other QBs like Kyle Orton or Robert Griffin.

Brady has proven he can do it when he throws to Deion Branch or David Givens etc. Or heck, low tier free agents like Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney and David Patten. Or Julian Edelmans! But the Patriots have not had a single working top draft pick at WR since Branch a decade or more ago--until Aaron Dobson.

Go ahead, you can't name me one.

 

[Deus Irae]

i like this idea....just as i liked the tight-end scheme, and their offensive ingenuity in general.....but i wish they could find an outside WR and it seems like our rocket science offense rules out a lot of potential WRs who just cant get it.....do i blame nfl WRs for not being smart enough or the patriots for possibly over intellectualizing a game of chemically enhanced guys hitting each other

Take a look at the WRs the Patriots have drafted:

DraftHistory.com | Boston/New England Patriots

Even going further back than the BB era, you have to go a long way before you find a WR draftee who didn't make it in NE, but flourished elsewhere. Then, take a look at the "big name" guys who came and failed. Guys like Chad Johnson and Joey Galloway didn't go on to have success once they went back to other teams.

Belichick's WR group has largely* been filled by:

2002 draft year
2007 trade year

Not counting last year's rookies, that's basically what the Patriots have been using for WR. I find it tough to blame anyone but the personnel department for something like that.




*Troy Brown was a Holdover and Patten was signed the year prior to the Branch/Givens draft. The team got one year each out of Reche Caldwell and Brandon LLoyd, and Gaffney was an in season signing the year prior to the Welker/Moss trades.

 

[james87654]

Take a look at the WRs the Patriots have drafted:

http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/team-position/patriots

Even going further back than the BB era, you have to go a long way before you find a WR draftee who didn't make it in NE, but flourished elsewhere. Then, take a look at the "big name" guys who came and failed. Guys like Chad Johnson and Joey Galloway didn't go on to have success once they went back to other teams.

Belichick's WR group has largely* been filled by:

2002 draft year
2007 trade year

Not counting last year's rookies, that's basically what the Patriots have been using for WR. I find it tough to blame anyone but the personnel department for something like that.




*Troy Brown was a Holdover and Patten was signed the year prior to the Branch/Givens draft. The team got one year each out of Reche Caldwell and Brandon LLoyd, and Gaffney was an in season signing the year prior to the Welker/Moss trades.

i agree that our personnel calls have not lived up to the coaching.....and i was hoping the top two picks this last draft would be pass rusher/dl (easley) and a pass catcher (WR/TE) but apparently BB thought jimmy g was too good to pass up and can be the eventual starter....time will tell.....and youre right about guys that we get rid of practically never excelling elsewhere.....hes very good at knowing when a guy is done, if he has him in house.......i live in tx so im not as close to the team as a lot of you guys.....i watch most of the games streaming online in less than perfect quality.......i personally wish we would target more tall big bodied guys for the outside WR position, instead of 5-11 type guys with "decent" speed.....even chad jackson was only 6- 7/8 inch.....brady does so well with gronk and his big hands and catching radius.....i feel like brady excels at horizontal and diagonal type passes where he can zip it in there with his line drive throwing style, but is not as good at vertical routes where he has to put air underneath the ball and use more touch......he was obviously good with moss and gronk but they are the exception to the rule.....there are plenty of those big receivers out there not named megatron or fitzgerald.....someone brady could feel more comfortable throwing it up to in single coverage with our guy making a play on the ball, instead of edelman breaking free vertical every now and then and brady feeling like it has to be perfect and he ends up overthrowing it

anyway, what is your take on our personnel issues at WR?

p.s. i have only been watching the team since 2003 after the media was making fun of BB's attire (thats what got me interested), so my historical knowledge cant compete with a lot of you