Welcome to PatsFans.com

God vs. Science

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Lifer, Nov 28, 2007.

  1. Lifer

    Lifer Banned

    Joined:
    May 10, 2007
    Messages:
    3,293
    Likes Received:
    26
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0 / -0

    A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the students, "Let me explain the problem science has with religion." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.
    "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
    "Yes sir," the student says.
    "So you believe in God?"
    "Absolutely."
    "Is God good?"
    "Sure! God's good."
    "Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
    "Yes."
    "Are you good or evil?"
    "The Bible says I'm evil."
    The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"
    "Yes sir, I would."
    "So you're good...!"
    "I wouldn't say that."
    "But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."
    The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"
    The student remains silent.
    "No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.
    "Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"
    "Er...yes," the student says.
    "Is Satan good?"
    The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."
    "Then where does Satan come from?"
    The student falters. "From God"
    "That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
    "Yes, sir."
    "Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"
    "Yes."
    "So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."
    Again, the student has no answer. "Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"
    The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."
    "So who created them?"
    The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"
    The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor, I do."
    The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"
    "No sir. I've never seen Him."
    "Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
    "No, sir, I have not."
    "Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"
    "No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
    "Yet you still believe in him?"
    "Yes."
    "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"
    "Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."
    "Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."
    The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"
    "Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
    "And is there such a thing as cold?"
    "Yes, son, there's cold too."
    "No sir, there isn't."
    The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees."</ I>
    "Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."
    Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.
    "What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"
    "Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"
    "You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word."
    "In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"
    The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"
    "Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."
    The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?"
    "You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought."
    "It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it."
    "Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"
    "If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."
    "Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
    The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.
    "Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"
    The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.
    "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean."
    The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter.
    "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir."
    "So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"
    Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.
    Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith."
    "Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"
    Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
    To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
    The professor sat down.
  2. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    8,609
    Likes Received:
    13
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -0

    wrong forum...

    nice fabel... but not inherent truth...

    otherwise, please explain to us all reason for the evil that some "God loving" men do to the world each and every day...
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2007
  3. Lifer

    Lifer Banned

    Joined:
    May 10, 2007
    Messages:
    3,293
    Likes Received:
    26
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0 / -0

    1. people bring up God vs Science in this forum every day.

    2. Men are not God, therefore are not perfect like God. Even God loving men have "evil" in them. Thats why trying to be "good enough" on our own merits will never cleanse us from evil. There isnt a human on the earth without a shred of evil in their hearts, we are not capable of being "pure as snow". The Bible tells us only through the blood of Jesus are we forgiven of our sin. Man will always be flawed, dont put your faith in "God loving" men.

    you asked..... :)
  4. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,672
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    Other than the fact that the Bible is bullsh-t and there is no God, your story is cute but fails to address the ultimate conflict bible believers can never resolve:
    Why ia a child born with a defective gene that causes pain, disability, and death to a child who has never had a thought or drawn a breath?
  5. Lifer

    Lifer Banned

    Joined:
    May 10, 2007
    Messages:
    3,293
    Likes Received:
    26
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0 / -0

    Here is an answer non-believers never want to accept.

    I dont know. Im not God.

    that pain happens does not disprove God. That we dont know the answer why bad things happen to good people does not mean there is no answer.
  6. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    8,609
    Likes Received:
    13
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -0

    so? all the more reason for you to contribute to rule breaking?

    i don't, never indicated i did, and never would... you portrayed, with your fabel, that evil happens in the absense of God... clearly God exists in these men, and they still default to evil acts...

    sure did... and you didn't do a very good job explaining...
  7. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    38,862
    Likes Received:
    119
    Ratings:
    +297 / 1 / -9

    I have Seen God
    I have Talked With God

    God Once Said To Me "Harry, They Say I'm God"
    I replied, "Are You"
    He Said, "You Bet Your A$s I am", We Were Drinking At The Time.

    I am Weak But Thou Art Strong
    Jesus Keep Me From All Wrong
    I'll Be Satisfied As Long
    As I Walk Let Me Walk Close To Thee
  8. Lifer

    Lifer Banned

    Joined:
    May 10, 2007
    Messages:
    3,293
    Likes Received:
    26
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0 / -0

    yes, i believe I did. You just chose to ignore my answer. Man can love God, that does not make them INTO God, so therefore, no man is perfect and completely free of any evil. We are all human, and we all are sinners. No human is capable of going through a day without one unpure thought or action, simply because we are human. So your premise is flawed. There is a presence of God in "these men", but they are not God.

    By believing, they can have Salvation, and by making God bigger in their hearts, they hopefully will become the people God intended, but they can never be God.
  9. Lifer

    Lifer Banned

    Joined:
    May 10, 2007
    Messages:
    3,293
    Likes Received:
    26
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0 / -0

    this can and should be now moved over to the Religion forum. As i said, i posted it here as this God vs Religion topic has been free fodder in this forum, especially as there are Christian candidates for President and this topic seems to come up every day.
    But yes, it should now be moved over...
  10. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,672
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    I would accept it if it were an answer.
    Really, Lifer... I got no beef with religionists as long as they don't put me down for my beliefs (I have some, believe it or not). I assume you're a pretty decent person who cares a lot about people.

    You claim that pain and suffering (evil) is due to the absence of God's love. How can a newborn child have a lack of God's love or have made any actions or decisions that would distance him from God? Why would God not be even more intensely protective and filling of such a child? Why wouldn't such a defect be corrected in-utero by God?

    I have heard plenty of religious rationales for everything under the sun, but none for that. What role would faith have for explaining these "errors" of the cosmos?

    By the way, I love that "no darkness and cold" idea. I use it all the time when my wife says "You're letting out all the cold!" while I'm deciding on whether I want a Guiness or a Sam.
  11. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,672
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    Too much porn. I can't be trusted there.
  12. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2004
    Messages:
    3,785
    Likes Received:
    35
    Ratings:
    +77 / 5 / -7

    #37 Jersey

    What are you the forum sheriff, now?

    Stop being a fukcing snitch, better yet go back to your little dolphins message board, jackass!
  13. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    8,609
    Likes Received:
    13
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -0

    dolphins message board? wtf are you even talking about?

    it was a question of principle... now, do you have anything to offer of substance about the topic at hand, or are you just gonna run your mouth on a personal level safely behind your computer monitor?
  14. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2004
    Messages:
    3,785
    Likes Received:
    35
    Ratings:
    +77 / 5 / -7

    #37 Jersey

    I strongly disagree with others on this board politically, Patters, NEM, GJ, but we do have a common interest. THE PATRIOTS! You on the other hand are just some "outsider" who comes here to start trouble, YOU'RE a ********! I might not care for some of the other posters personal beliefs, but you know what we at least are on the same page on Sundays(sometimes Mondays).

    GFY!
  15. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    17,650
    Likes Received:
    113
    Ratings:
    +142 / 1 / -4

    To an atheist like myself, religion is inherently political. That's why I personally never object to these kinds of threads.

    As far as the story, I think it falls apart in the last paragraph:

    "To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'"

    For that logic to work, first you'd have to define what good is, and God knows there are many definitions of that and they often contradict each other. Evil is very subjective, so does not exist in pure forms like absolute zero and pitch blackness. Evil and good can coexist as in cases of self defense, stealing food for the poor, killing civilians in the course of waging just war, etc.
  16. SteelerSteve

    SteelerSteve Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2007
    Messages:
    271
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Actually you do make a good point. I actually liked this story, but it did have its flaws. I personally believe that God is real. I am not religious though, if that makes sense, but I truely believe that without God, the universe couldn't possibly exist. I look at how many flaws the Big Bang theory and the religion of evolution have, and it seems that those "ideas" are just excuses for people who dont want to accept that God is real.
  17. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    8,609
    Likes Received:
    13
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -0

    LOL... i think we all know what GFY stands for... so, it's clear that the venom that Qui started has led to the devolvement of the forum as a whole... good job! let's see if anything is done about you...

    anyhow, genius, i admire the patriots wholeheartedly, grew up in SE Mass., and have likely forgotten more about the team and its history than you retain in that curious head of yours... so, i'm not quite sure what you're even talking about... get back to me when you figure it out...

    as for me only "stirring up trouble," how is it that Bush Leaguers routinely act with such over-dramaticism?...lol... there's perhaps 6 of you who don't like what i have to say, and i can assure you i'm big enough to handle it... if the entire forum, to a man, wanted to do away with me and the stories i link, then i can also assure you i would evacuate... unfortunately for your wishes, that's not the case at all...

    but, when you're ready to debate a topic with any semblance of substance, and not personal attacks (which is all you seem to have in your limited arsenal), i'll be right here waiting for you... in the meantime, see you in a month, when you conjure up the stones again to hit and run like you usually do...
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2007
  18. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,674
    Likes Received:
    10
    Ratings:
    +10 / 0 / -0

    Excellent thread! Critically important issue. No wonder an immediate attack on it, an attempt to relegate the discussion to the "porn and pills" gallery. Regardless, God is the first scientist and nobody can change that.

    This OPost turns the tables, and very effectively: cannot disprove that which one cannot see, taste, touch, hear, or feel. I would add: can you see your mind, not that mass of tissue inside your skull called your "brain", but your mind?? Everyone knows when they are "in their right mind" or not. Everybody knows what "having a fine mind" is all about. Boston, a major hub of study and learning is always looking for "great minds"; at least that's what they say at Harvard, MIT, and the rest.

    But show me your mind, please. You can not. Only way is through your words and actions. That shows what the invisible mind is made of.

    Same thing with love. Show me love. What does it look like? This is not an invitation for adolescent jokes -- it's a serious question: show what love is. Again, it too is invisible to the physical eye. But everyone knows love exists because everyone lives each day in hopes of finding love, sharing love, giving love. Without love, life is empty as a discarded peanut shell after a baseball game.

    So, how about God. Can you say God doesn't exist just because your physical weights and measures cannot see, touch, taste, smell, or hear Him?? Like the mind and love, God is invisible. Which is good because now God can be anywhere any time, and travel very quietly. The ultimate in low-key. Total freedom for God, as it should be.

    As to evil: not just the absence of good, evil is the willful disregard of what is good. Evil opposes good. Evil wants to destroy good. But if God is the Creator, then how did evil come into existence? If God creates everything, then if evil exists God must have created it???! Really? What about "freedom"? Didn't God give us freedom? We can go this way or that, we can eat now or later, we can sit or walk, run, or dance -- God doesn't decide, we do!! We have free will.

    Why did God give us free will? How boring would it be for God if all He created would never do anything unless He told it what to do!!! Wouldn't be worth the effort to create in the first place. Boring, boring, boring. No, God gave us free will because God wants to see others who can be like Him, not because He mandates it but because these others (His children) see the intrinsic value in following His way. When God's creatures follow His way VOLUNTARILY, yet exercise the creative powers He also gives to us, then it becomes a most interesting and exciting life for everyone!! Unlimited creative license, but within the parameters of the principle of life and love itself. Parameters are essential in everything; without parameters there is nothing but total chaos, which is not good at all.

    Now, unfortunately, one of God's creatures decided to exercise his free will in a way that was contrary to God's will and design. Why?? Jealosy, which is putting SELF above God and the rest of creation. All sin, all crime, all hell, when we get right down to it, is a form of putting SELF above others. Satan started it. He was jealous of the love he saw God giving to Adam and Eve, so he tempted them to follow him into selfishness and egoism. History is the sad textbook of the results of this rebellion.

    So, God is good. And we are meant to be God's children, so we, too, must be good. We need to understand God's situation, His heart -- at the time of creation, at the fall of Adam and Eve, at the coming of Jesus, and today as well -- and then we can overcome all evil and get on with building God's original true ideal on earth. Amen.

    But we must be centered on the starting point so we can all get on the same page and work together. We need to be a part of the TEAM, not just a bunch of individualists. So, for that we need parents. Not just the same old same old of fallen Adam's lineage, we need true parents. Then we can be the true children God has never had but has always wanted. That time has finally arrived!! Aju!!


    //
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2007
  19. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    8,609
    Likes Received:
    13
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -0

    that's all well and good, Fog...

    it's just that, well... your description of God and what God wants of the peoples of the Earth differs profoundly from mine...
  20. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    20,013
    Likes Received:
    181
    Ratings:
    +287 / 5 / -8

    It's a pretty well worked yarn, I agree. I also think the premise is pretty evolved, no pun intended, given the narrow range within which such homilies are usually constructed, even though the storyteller of course has the final say as to how the argument turns out (a philosophy professor might not see the "heat sink" trap a mile away, but a physics professor would). Besides pointing out that a Philosophy professor can be flummoxed by a physics analogy, the fable's got one very good point: that faith, such as it is, is not science, nor should it be confused with science. This part of the story constitutes religion "on the defensive" against science.

    On the other hand, when religion goes on the offensive in the story, it does deceive in that it assumes the "professor's brain isn't scientifically validated," because nobody has measured said brain with his or her senses. Scientific method, while born of skepticism, allows for laws to be established once experiments have been repeated with identical results. Over man's history, we've repeated the experiment of bashing a skull open to touch, see, smell, and sometimes taste a brain often enough, that we know the professor has one (unless he is a robot from the futah.)

    So no, we have not disproven evolution, nor detracted from other "best guesses" based on scientific evidence, some of which made possible our contentions to the contrary (i.e., those concerned with computers.) And neither have we disproven God's existence, for the believer.

    So the idea that we take things on faith all the time is a propaganda spin, not supported by the example referenced.

    I do agree with Lifer that to put one's faith in a "man of God" is always a mistake; if one has a personal relationship with God, or follows a way of life deriving from a belief in God, one can practice them. If not, giving credence to the personal relationship another has with God is silly.

    Another point on which Lifer's refreshingly honest in this thread is his reaction to bad things happening to good people, and how it fits with "God" - as in, why does God allow this or that. He quite honestly and I think courageously punts on the subject, saying he doesn't know, because he's not God.

    That's the most honest attitude, really, and perhaps the one believers are meant to come to, regarding God.

    Finally, I also agree that this entire thread should be moved to the religion forum. Ditto the supposed AIDS post elsewhere on this political board, which is basically a religious screed about how "God intends us to live like this, and bad people who don't get AIDS."

    PFnV

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>