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Goal: Zero Attacks Against Israel, Zero Israeli Attacks

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatsFanInVa, Jan 5, 2009.

  1. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I bent over backwards not to say "Zero Israeli response".

    Principle 1 does either side have a right, starting from a theoretical starting point of zero hostility, to initiate hostility?

    This is a vital precondition for peace: If we say that regardless of hostility by the other party, one party is entitled to random attack, no party could sign such a peace. Have I missed something on this subject? Discuss.

    Otherwise, resolved: No party has an inherent right to violence based solely on the existence of the other party.

    Principle 2 (Following on from Principle 1): Can all parties accept the existence of other parties? Again, the acceptance that the other party will continue to exist, in the absence of provocation from that party, is absolutely necessary to peace.

    Again, have I missed something? Is it in fact possible to accept a peace predicated on the right of the other party to initiate acts of war to which the signatory in question forfeits his right to respond? Again, discuss how this might pertain.

    Principle 3 The role of movements outside of existential rights If a party refuses to accept the right of the second party's citizenry to exist, a state of continual war is not only likely but also inevitible. If, for example, Israel insists there is no Palestine and can be no Palestine, as was once the case, Israel is therefore in a state of perpetual opposition to the existence of said people. If Fatah insists there is no Israel and can never be an Israel, as was also the case, the parallel condition pertains. Fatah has also reveresed its stance on this subject. Hamas, by contrast, does insist that Palestine (including Israel, by Hamas' reckoning), is a perpetually Muslim state, and that not only Israel but Israel's people are inherently without rights in the region. These are examples.

    Hamas is different in kind from Fatah and from the State of Israel:

    a) Hamas differs from Fatah in that it claims its ideology from a religious source rather than a secular source; therefore, to make an ideological reversal, Hamas must reach a higher bar, and have not only a change of heart so to speak, but also a religious epiphany;

    b) Nevertheless it was once unthinkable that Fatah would make such a reversal, so there is historical precedent;

    c) It has been demonstrated that when a party accepts Israel's right to exist, Israel's view of that party's existential claims (and actions toward that party) change, for the better of that party (e.g., Fatah in the 1980s);

    d) Israel differs in kind from both Fatah and Hamas, as Israel is a sovereign state enjoying international recognition;

    e) Nevertheless, the onus of gaining recognition, based on the nature of the conflict, is seen as devolving upon all parties.

    Question for the floor: can self-determination be extricated from recognition of the existential (national) right? I.e., can Hamas demand that Israel not be a Jewish state, even were it to surrender all statement of hostility against Jews as a people, as a precondition to peace? Can Israel demand that Palestine elect one party and not another as a precondition for Palestinian sovereignty? If so, why, in either case? Is there any reason for an exception?

    More later - please feel free to discuss.

    PFnV
  2. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Any Palestinian body that represents the will of the people will be unacceptable to Israel. The concept of both Palestinians and Israelis to keep exchanging an eye for an eye and to seek revenge, will continue to forever escalate a cycle of violence until nukes come into play and the entire world ends up in flames.
  3. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Mahmoud Abbas and Fatah say hello.

    Seriously, Mav, please buy the Cliff's Notes for Middle East 101. You are drowning in your ignorance.
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2009
  4. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey


    Israel has had nukes for 30 years.

    So, in essence, what you are saying is that once the truly irresponsible side (Hamas) gains access to the big toy they will shoot their load.
  5. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    it will take another hundred years before the hate from taking away their lands go away...

    I can't think of any other instance in history where people have said OK to having their lands taken away and accept the new inhabitants so quickly...
  6. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Rookie

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    Personally, I have faith in Israel acting responsibly; but Hamas? I'd rather give Akmadinajad a case of Red Bull and a nuke with a super-sensitive trigger than see one anywhere near someone from Hamas.
  7. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    People seem to forget that there are over 1 million Arab Israelis living very peacefully on their land within Israel today.

    While we all click away on our computers so smug in our judgements, let us compare that fact to how our forefathers dealt with the Native Americans. Let's see some of the indignant folks here hand over their houses to some nice Apache families.
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2009
  8. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand Rookie

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    #37 Jersey

    What is that? The mythical country of Palestine? Let me know where that was, north or south of Atlantis?
  9. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    I mean seriously... people's land were taken from them... should they not have an issue with that?
  10. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Israel Has Decided To Protect Itself
  11. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You wonder what the world would be like without radical muslimism, radical zionism and the christian right??.. things might work out a whole lot better and we all might get along..Imagine there's no heaven it's easy if you try.
  12. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand Rookie

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    #37 Jersey

    I wonder how great this country would be without a$$holes, things would be great. Imagine if religious hatred didn't exist?
  13. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not sure if you are calling me a name, but the basis of most religious hatred is religious extremism...
  14. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey


    ......he writes from the comfort of his home on Timucuan territory.
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2009
  15. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Yeah, well until radical Zionists stop thinking it's okay to oppress another group of people due to over-paranoid survival instincts... nothing will ever be fixed. Any moderate Israeli leader will be killed by his own Israeli radical factions, so there won't be a solution anytime soon.
  16. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    I posted in another thread that I think Israel got some intelligence from Abbas.
  17. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    As I thought, no takers for the hard questions.

    Re-read the question. Consider it a challenge. What must happen? What is the future of the region? We are indeed all snugly ensconced behind our screens--perhaps that is the best place to attempt such an exercise.

    McGraw: you have pointed to an oft-repeated statement, which is part fact and so is repeated so often as if all-fact. But it is accepted as all-fact by one party. If so, what solution inclusive of all in the region -- including 5.5 million Israeli Jews -- can be workable?

    Is that indeed part of our goal?

    Maverick: you point inaccurately to the notion that any moderate Israeli will be assassinated, although only one Israeli leader has ever been killed by Israeli Jews for making peace, while many Muslim leaders have been killed by Muslims for making peace with Israel. If anything the fetish for fratricidal assassination is more onerous among Palestinians than Israelis. But is it your honest belief that no leaders can make peace, for fear of their lives? (if it is simply your reaction that only Israeli leaders are in danger, just shut up. Objective is one thing, but I can't stomach that level of idiocy.)

    Shmessy: I'm painfully aware of the problem, as are you... what is the solution? Where is peace? Or are we doomed to perpetual warfare?

    I just want to throw it open for constructive thought. We've done the Gaza thread to death, though we can all weigh in again. But what if we were to try to find the solution? Why not, after all?

    PFnV
  18. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey


    At this point in time, there is no long-term solution. There is only time-gaining short-term survival self-defense for the Israelis, moderate Palestinians, and Levantine Christians (something Maverick4 calls "over-paranoid survival instincts" - - one must wonder what goes on in some peoples' heads).

    Between Sinai, Gaza and the West bank, Israel has given back MORE land than it currently comprises. Swallow THAT one. I have asked others here to name ONE instance where an Arab country voluntarily gave back even one inch of territory EVER.

    Israel is merely trying to stay alive and thrive - - and they are doing a damn good job of it.
  19. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey


    The level of comedy (and ignorance) in this post is unrivaled.
  20. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I do marvel at its compact elegance ;)

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