Welcome to PatsFans.com

GM: End of an Era

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by mcgraw_wv, May 30, 2009.

  1. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2008
    Messages:
    2,257
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

  2. scout

    scout Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    7,699
    Likes Received:
    25
    Ratings:
    +35 / 0 / -1

    #15 Jersey

    Yea, that will be interesting. Wonder at what price it will start at? Maybe a couple of our financial gurus here will post their opinions.
    I've been gambling on these stocks in the past year. Bought Ford when the vast opinion was it was going down, and made some nice change. A few times I've been tempted to buy a few thousand shares of GM, due to the price and reward if it didn't go belly-up.
    Anyone want to guess what the new GM opens at?
  3. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    20,000
    Likes Received:
    179
    Ratings:
    +284 / 5 / -8

    I'm not a "financial guru" but I don't think "Newco" opens at anything for a while (i.e., would it immediately be publicly traded? My guess is not.) Obviously, though, the hope is to replace government (taxpayer) equity stakes with private investment. The IPO would be at the discretion of the task force, I think, which means they're responsible to get back some return for the taxpayer, rather than unload the government stake as a penny stock.
  4. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    26,729
    Likes Received:
    124
    Ratings:
    +248 / 3 / -2

    If I read correctly, I saw something about the UAW owning 40% of the stock in the company. If that's accurate, then imagine who makes out in the end. It won't be the taxpayer who's forking over free billions, that's for sure.
  5. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2007
    Messages:
    25,620
    Likes Received:
    73
    Ratings:
    +149 / 1 / -9

    Personally, I look forward to the day when our government NEVER bails any private corporation out. In hindsight, I think it's obvious we never should have tried to bail any of the Big-3 auto makers...what a waste that was.

    I'd like to see regulation that would prevent any corp. from ever getting "too big to fail". Specifically, any financial corp.
  6. tanked_as_usual

    tanked_as_usual Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2007
    Messages:
    4,981
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    only if they can get the UAW monkey off their backs.........
  7. NEPatriot

    NEPatriot Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2004
    Messages:
    7,839
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    Why did we pay 25+ billion dollars to see this ending?
  8. scout

    scout Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    7,699
    Likes Received:
    25
    Ratings:
    +35 / 0 / -1

    #15 Jersey

    I don't see it as that much money if you look at the big picture. First and foremost, had we not bailed out the big 3 at that point in time, we may have had depression like circumstances in a lot of the country. Ford, which is in decent shape, and did not take TARP money, most likely would have gone belly-up.
    Twenty Billion is less then we spend in Iraq for two weeks. It is also a drop in the bucket when you compare what GM received and what went to the banks. Not to mention comparing how the two industries used the money, one had guidelines, time tables, firings, negotiations, agreements, etc, while the other pissed on us.
    I do not want our government managing any industry (including the Post Office), but didn't want to see another depression either, which may have resulted without that bailout. The recent agreements with bondholders and the UAW would not have happened a few months ago. They had to be hung out to dry for awhile.
  9. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    37,701
    Likes Received:
    257
    Ratings:
    +476 / 2 / -10

    #87 Jersey

    GM was playing short 1 player when Toyota became the rage in the 70's. They never quite caught up and they only have themselves to blame. How many years has it taken for them to make a decent small car? How many more will it take?
  10. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    20,000
    Likes Received:
    179
    Ratings:
    +284 / 5 / -8

    I believe UAW (through their health benefits fund) will own 17.5%.

    GM union swallows cost-cutting concessions - May. 29, 2009

    Basically GM owes a lot more to the health fund, and UAW accepted less than the value owed in a debt for equity swap, the 17.5% being the equity. You and I will own 70-odd%. Bondholders will own 10% if they accept that as the swap for their bonds (debt instruments issued by GM to raise money.) Stockholders will get nothing or next to nothing. That part's not too big a scandal, as common stock isn't secured debt. So it's secured debtors (bondholders) played off against the UAW health fund (and about a zillion other variables.)

    We don't know how long this lasts; the idea, again, is that you come up with a "good GM" that emerges within 2 or 3 months, possibly even faster. That company takes few debt obligations with it. Then you sell off the "bad GM" a brand at a time, plus other assets that go with, to try to address the remaining debt. That can drag on forever, but it gets the good brands back in business faster. Some of the "bad brands" will probably survive, notably Saturn (I think.)

    You save GM/Chrysler, and save those couple of hundred thousand jobs, and that is good. But you also save the million or two jobs in the supply chain leading to your finished vehicles.

    Side story, on Chrysler not GM:

    I left the lights on in my wife's PT cruiser, and went to jump it. Wow. You can't get to the battery. It is nowhere in sight. You can find a positive terminal with a red cap on it, however. So you can jump the battery, you just can not replace the battery. It looks like you need to either have a hydraulic lift or remove the engine to get to it.

    I can't imagine that happens by accident. Looks like someone figured that a certain number of people will take the derelict Chrysler to the dealership, and pay to have all that happen. Mind-boggling.

    PFnV
  11. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2007
    Messages:
    25,620
    Likes Received:
    73
    Ratings:
    +149 / 1 / -9

    Same with my Chrysler Concorde with 165K miles on it. Had the battery replaced for $150...what a joke. Even worse is getting the headlights replaced these days. It costs about $700 at the dealership and slightly less at a garage. It used to a simple job you could do on your own.

    All of these changes make me trust the industry less than ever. To purposely make changes to make maintainance more expensive is like stabbing your customers in the back.
  12. scout

    scout Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    7,699
    Likes Received:
    25
    Ratings:
    +35 / 0 / -1

    #15 Jersey

    That's F'd up!
    I remember my back yard mechanic days when the average Joe could work on his car. Then, I bought a few imports and discovered why everyone said the Germans were so freakin' smart. Now, you can't get to a battery, a battery? You got to be kidding.
  13. efin98

    efin98 Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Messages:
    5,090
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Anyone remember Conrail? The Gov't owned freight railroad company that existed from roughly 1976 until 1999?

    This smells distinctly like that situation. Shareholders got screwed out of their value when the company was split up and sold after finally turning a profit, could have gotten even value but the government settled for less than initial value :rolleyes:
    Last edited: May 31, 2009
  14. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    20,000
    Likes Received:
    179
    Ratings:
    +284 / 5 / -8

    Yeahhhh, but you only know that in retrospect. (i.e., you figure out what the damn thing is worth now, and that's basically an auction situation. What people will pay is what it's worth.)

    Now if you wanna roll the dice you have to do it prospectively - which means political heat for keeping the company longer. That timing will be an interesting decision. I'm sure there will be enormous pressure to hold onto Newco only as long as necessary.
  15. State

    State Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2005
    Messages:
    2,515
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

  16. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    38,847
    Likes Received:
    119
    Ratings:
    +295 / 1 / -9

    Hidden Battery
    They started doing things like that about 30 years ago, they didn't want you to be able to do or fix anything yourself, People have to stand together to fight Big Government & Big Business.

    My big gripe today are these bastard Aliens that the Computer Co's have answering the Phones when you have a problem, I have to hang up on them then call again and keep waiting until you reach an operator then tell them your an American and you only speak english, make sure you yell at them, they will have an english speaking person on immediately.

    I told one of them one day to "go f-ck himself" and he thanked me.

    WE ARE DOOMED
  17. NEPatriot

    NEPatriot Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2004
    Messages:
    7,839
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0


    Your excuse is lame.Obama rather spent the money on GM than CA. What a great decision!

    Do you what the consequence will be if CA is bankrupt? How many jobs has Obama saved / created AFTER spending hundred of billion dollars?

    150000 while loosing million jobs at the same time. What a huge saving!:rolleyes:
  18. Michael

    Michael Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2004
    Messages:
    9,006
    Likes Received:
    15
    Ratings:
    +15 / 0 / -0

    #12 Jersey

    Union votes Democrat. End of story.
  19. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    20,000
    Likes Received:
    179
    Ratings:
    +284 / 5 / -8

    One big difference is that there are not 49 other auto companies that could demand the bailout; there are 49 other states.

    Michael, the adjective is "Democratic." You guys really need to look into basic grammar.

    PFnV
  20. Michael

    Michael Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2004
    Messages:
    9,006
    Likes Received:
    15
    Ratings:
    +15 / 0 / -0

    #12 Jersey

    I know what it is. And certainly not the first time it has been pointed out here. I type fast and and sometimes don't proof read. Funny how when I correct something like that I'm called petty. :rolleyes:
    Oh and according to your beloved there are 58 other states.
    Last edited: May 31, 2009

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>