Glad Asante Samuel holds no grudges...

[NYCPatsFan]

Re: Glad Assante Samual holds no grudges...

These types of discussions will never have any conclusion. The parameters are so extreme that this has little to do with football.

BB doesn't like the press. The ego driven press hates this to no end. When has it ever happened that this type of story developes after a win? Look at the second half, prorated for a full game:

Pats 26 points/ 466 yards offense/34:32 minutes TOP
Panthers 6 points/ 181 yards offense/ 25:28 minute TOP

Why isn't the story for Sunday about a team that was resilient after a dreadful 1st half and won the game by dominating the second half?

Just look at the "postings" of Deus Irae, our village ******. This has no end because these people have no end.

BB sets the culture. Players like Samuel simply don't fit. The culture will not changed to accomodate Samuel. Same for Bobby Knight. Some great players owe their existence to Knight while he could/did make basket cases of some.


Yes, Samuel did choke BIG TIME

This is uncalled for. You might not like Deus' stances and opinions but if you have been part of this board for long, you should know that Dues' postings have always been respectful and well written.

Agree to disagree but don't insult other members.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: Glad Assante Samual holds no grudges...

Just look at the "postings" of Deus Irae, our village ******. This has no end because these people have no end.

Way out of line. Disagree, but don't get personally insulting. It's not the way this Board works.

Deus is provocative at times, but he also usually has well-thought out positions, even when he's wrong.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: Glad Assante Samual holds no grudges...

Sure if you throw out the cap, and his me attitude. Then you start sacrificing other parts of the team so that you can have a guy that will ring in a few interceptions by jumping routes, but yet will allow some big plays as well because of it.

Disagree. Given some of the wasted dollars that have gone against the cap in recent years, I would have gladly paid a bucket of them to keep Asante; this was the biggest major cap allocation decision made by Piolichick with which I disagreed. I didn't say he was perfect, but I still contend that we'd have a better D with him than we do without him.

 

[Zeus]

Asante apparently feels that he has succeeded in spite of rather than because of his experience with the Patriots. NE drafted him in the 4th round and made a significant investment in both money and time refining his game. Some respect and gratitude might be in order ...

 

[emoney_33]

Re: Glad Assante Samual holds no grudges...

Disagree. Given some of the wasted dollars that have gone against the cap in recent years, I would have gladly paid a bucket of them to keep Asante; this was the biggest major cap allocation decision made by Piolichick with which I disagreed. I didn't say he was perfect, but I still contend that we'd have a better D with him than we do without him.

I'm curious, what would you have done at the time to keep the cap room for him. What would our team generally look like now due to that. I was never a huge fan of Samuel, but I'm not going to deny he would have value in the secondary. I'm just not sure we would be a better off football team spending money on him rather than elsewhere. This year we are 4th in the NFL in opponent's completion % against, btw. Inexperience and miscommunication has led to some big plays but we do have the talent back there.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Asante apparently feels that he has succeeded in spite of rather than because of his experience with the Patriots. NE drafted him in the 4th round and made a significant investment in both money and time refining his game. Some respect and gratitude might be in order ...

In the NFL any respect and gratitude that might be owed by a player is owed to the team that's paying him; the team that's paying him, in turn, only feels it owes the player nothing more than his contract requires and will cut him or trade him or let him go elsewhere as soon as it is convenient or in its perceived self interest to do so.

As far as I can tell, Asante wanted to stay with the Pats but didn't like what they offered him; a lot of us feel that it was a mistake not to figure out how to do a deal with him and that the Pats would be better for it if they had. So, I don't think he owes us anything.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: Glad Assante Samual holds no grudges...

I'm curious, what would you have done at the time to keep the cap room for him. What would our team generally look like now due to that. I was never a huge fan of Samuel, but I'm not going to deny he would have value in the secondary. I'm just not sure we would be a better off football team spending money on him rather than elsewhere. This year we are 4th in the NFL in opponent's completion % against, btw. Inexperience and miscommunication has led to some big plays but we do have the talent back there.

Fair question. It was three (almost four if you consider the time leading up to his FA season) years ago and I had a specific view at the time, and I honestly forget what it was. But, I'm comfortable leaving it that Piolichick always found a way to keep important guys by manipulating the cap, restructuring contracts, etc., so I feel strongly they could and should have done so in this case.

Exactly. It's the big plays that have been a big part of our problem this year, not being able to stop them against a Manning or Brees or even a Flacco, who was done in by a dropped pass or our record would probably be 7--6. Asante's a big play guy, jumping routes and keeping QB's nervous.

So, I'd rather have him and believe that if there had been a will, there would have been a way for Pioli to make it happen without hurting the team.

 

[Zeus]

In the NFL any respect and gratitude that might be owed by a player is owed to the team that's paying him; the team that's paying him, in turn, only feels it owes the player nothing more than his contract requires and will cut him or trade him or let him go elsewhere as soon as it is convenient or in its perceived self interest to do so.

As far as I can tell, Asante wanted to stay with the Pats but didn't like what they offered him; a lot of us feel that it was a mistake not to figure out how to do a deal with him and that the Pats would be better for it if they had. So, I don't think he owes us anything.

Asante was a nobody when the Patriots drafted him and left with a HUGE contract. Maybe that would have happened if he had been drafted by the Lions, but I doubt it. My take is that he's a better player for having been here. He seems to feel that his experience in NE was bad. That sounds like a money issue to me.

I agree that he owes the Patriots nothing. I think he is less than gracious taking pot shots at the team now two years removed from his time here.

In the end, I think he's a pretty good football player but his opinions on how the Patriots conduct their affairs have no meaning to me whatsoever.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: Glad Assante Samual holds no grudges...

Fair question. It was three (almost four if you consider the time leading up to his FA season) years ago and I had a specific view at the time, and I honestly forget what it was. But, I'm comfortable leaving it that Piolichick always found a way to keep important guys by manipulating the cap, restructuring contracts, etc., so I feel strongly they could and should have done so in this case.

Exactly. It's the big plays that have been a big part of our problem this year, not being able to stop them against a Manning or Brees or even a Flacco, who was done in by a dropped pass or our record would probably be 7--6. Asante's a big play guy, jumping routes and keeping QB's nervous.

So, I'd rather have him and believe that if there had been a will, there would have been a way for Pioli to make it happen without hurting the team.

Asante surely makes QBs pay at times, but I disagree with the assertion that he wouldn't also contribute to some of those big plays against. I always have visions of Marvin Harrison wide open down the sideline without a Patriot in sight because Samuel jumped Marvin's fake.

I don't think I would ever want Samuel on the team for the money he is making. He'll never be worth it IMO.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Asante was a nobody when the Patriots drafted him and left with a HUGE contract. Maybe that would have happened if he had been drafted by the Lions, but I doubt it. My take is that he's a better player for having been here. He seems to feel that his experience in NE was bad. That sounds like a money issue to me.

I agree that he owes the Patriots nothing. I think he is less than gracious taking pot shots at the team now two years removed from his time here.

In the end, I think he's a pretty good football player but his opinions on how the Patriots conduct their affairs have no meaning to me whatsoever.

All of that's fair enough and i agree on the value of his opinions about his former team.

I too would like it if guys could be "gracious" enough to say, "hey, you know, I'm better for having been with Team X rather than Team Y," but they usually don't.

So, we basically agree then. He doesn't owe us anything, but it would have been nice. Karma matters but doesn't pay. Maybe he'll take a different attitude over time as he matures, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[upstater1]

Re: Glad Assante Samual holds no grudges...

Disagree. Given some of the wasted dollars that have gone against the cap in recent years, I would have gladly paid a bucket of them to keep Asante; this was the biggest major cap allocation decision made by Piolichick with which I disagreed. I didn't say he was perfect, but I still contend that we'd have a better D with him than we do without him.

How can you possibly know you'll be wasting cap dollars when the whole philosophy of your success has been to pay the middle guys on the team more $$$ than any other team in the league. This has been a team of vrabel's and bruschi's in the past, so it's hard to go against the thing that made you great by paying top dollar (I would argue more than top dollar since $9+m for Samuel still strikes me as zany) to a guy when his pay is worth two cogs.

 

[Yehoodi]

Re: Glad Assante Samual holds no grudges...

He should have had that, obviously. And I was wrong.

Now, what about his blowing the game on coverage of Tyree.

The guy is a big choker.

I dont fault Samuel for the miss pick as he was running out of real estate, the side line, perhaps didn't expect the ball to be that far off the WR, and did make a good jump. all in all he did contact that ball at his highest point in his jump, IMO, and it went off his finger tips, if the ball is 3 inches lower he makes that catch . . .

However, as for the coverage on Tyree i will never forgive him for that, its it classic samuel, leave your man to try to get a cheap INT, 9 times out of 10 fans and announcers will say that it was a great read by him if he makes an INT underneath. . . the times he gets burn are forgotten about . . . that time was way too costly . . . the play is remember in the annuals of history sa great catch by Tyree, which it was, and Samuel is safe from criticism adn people forget whose man it was and when he went . . .

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: Glad Assante Samual holds no grudges...

How can you possibly know you'll be wasting cap dollars when the whole philosophy of your success has been to pay the middle guys on the team more $$$ than any other team in the league. This has been a team of vrabel's and bruschi's in the past, so it's hard to go against the thing that made you great by paying top dollar (I would argue more than top dollar since $9+m for Samuel still strikes me as zany) to a guy when his pay is worth two cogs.

under pioli, it was also a team that restructured contracts and figured out how to work under the cap for the talent it had to pay for. i take the view, with which you clearly would disagree, that Asante fell in that category and should have been kept. i know there are many out here who agree with me (just as there are those like yourself who disagree) and i believe that the vulnerability of our secondary to big time passers like manning and brees (and even flacco) supports what i'm saying.

but, asante is one of those people about whom folks on this board have disagreed over time and i don't expect to change your mind.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: Glad Assante Samual holds no grudges...

under pioli, it was also a team that restructured contracts and figured out how to work under the cap for the talent it had to pay for. i take the view, with which you clearly would disagree, that Asante fell in that category and should have been kept. i know there are many out here who agree with me (just as there are those like yourself who disagree) and i believe that the vulnerability of our secondary to big time passers like manning and brees (and even flacco) supports what i'm saying.

but, asante is one of those people about whom folks on this board have disagreed over time and i don't expect to change your mind.

Asante does not have enough impact on a team to warrant the top of the line pay he makes. He is a good CB, but overpaying so much for a good CB would be a disservice to the rest of the team.

PHI is 18th in comp% against this season, they were 2nd last year.

Pats were 12th in 07, 11th in 08 and 4th this year.

I think you highly overvalue Samuel's impact on a secondary's performance. His INTs are absolutely useful, but not nearly worth the money he's making because of those numbers.

 

[everlong]

NFL Playbook ripped Assante this week showing him biting on routes and getting burnt several times. Wilcox and Sharpe said if he doesn't buy into the Eagles system and stop trying to be a star the Eagles are going no where. 9M?

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

NFL Playbook ripped Assante this week showing him biting on routes and getting burnt several times. Wilcox and Sharpe said if he doesn't buy into the Eagles system and stop trying to be a star the Eagles are going no where. 9M?

Its always been all about Asante and all about the bucks.
That said I wish the Pats had had the foresight to extend him early. However in hindsight had that happened, then maybe he'd be a disgruntled Pats vet playing his vet contract out and breaking coverage to rack up pick numbers for his 3rd deal.

I liked him right after he was drafted. Asante is a very good CB with limitatations that prevent him from being a player at the level Ty Law was for the Pats. But its always been all about Asante and all about the bucks.

 

[Rob0729]

Personally, I don't care what Asante says about this team anymore. Although I do feel that the Pats shouldn't have given him the money he got in Philly, I can see why he would be bitter here. He wanted to stay and tried to get a deal done three years in a row. His perceived value of himself didn't match what the Pats thought, it happens.

I hindsight, the Pats should have signed him a year before his first free agent year. But hindsight is 20/20. He got his money from Philly. Aparently he is happy. I think players shouldn't trash their former organizations to the media, but I really don't care what he had to say.

I guess I would be more upset if I cared what Asante had to say anymore, but I really don't.

 

[BionicPatriot]

I'd make him feel unwanted to after dropping that frickin' pass.....

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Glad Assante Samual holds no grudges...

under pioli, it was also a team that restructured contracts and figured out how to work under the cap for the talent it had to pay for. i take the view, with which you clearly would disagree, that Asante fell in that category and should have been kept. i know there are many out here who agree with me (just as there are those like yourself who disagree) and i believe that the vulnerability of our secondary to big time passers like manning and brees (and even flacco) supports what i'm saying.

but, asante is one of those people about whom folks on this board have disagreed over time and i don't expect to change your mind.

I love the in hindsight I can't quite remember it was obvious argument... They knew what Asante was and they were willing to pay him close to $6M per in a long term deal to be that. Ditto Branch. Asante believes he is something else and he was determined to be paid accordingly. Ditto Branch. At the moment he is averaging $1.75M per pick by a team who believed he was the missing piece who find themselves in pretty much the same circumstances his former team finds itself in, clinging to a one game division lead and a shot at either the 3rd or 4th seed if they win out or a wild card berth or worse if they don't. Branch has one foot out the door on a perennial disappointment that hasn't improved a lick since the day he arrived. In fact it's trended downward along with his career.

We were vulnerable to big and small time passers in Asante's last three seasons here, in case you've fogotten how those seasons ended. Couldn't consistently make a play or a stop to defend a lead despite occasional flashes of brilliance. Also couldn't keep the offense moving in 2005 with Branch and Givens here any better than we are at the moment with a $9M all world WR at our disposal...

They will never knowingly overpay for talent, that principle is the foundation of the system. TEAM. That's why Milloy and Law and Branch and Woody and even Vinatieri moved on. Do they sometimes miscalculate and overpay for inferior talent, hell yeah, who doesn't. They do it less often than most. But here they won't do it intentionally because they're desperate to win because they know you don't get the hindsight do over fans do. At the time Asante left they had Moss and Brady and Seymour averaging between $9-10M per and AD averaging over $7M. $36M of a $120M payroll/eventual cap tied up in 4 players and you think handing $9M more to a ball hawking corner ($45M or more than a third of the pie) would have made a substantial difference in 2009 with no pass rush or in 2008 with Matt Cassel under center?

They let Seymour and Vrabel and Hobbs go this season and Bruschi retired. Had they not we would presently be $5M or more over the cap WITHOUT Asante Samuel in a year when you can't cavalierly restructure contracts to circumvent the cap even temporarily because of the restrictive rules under an expiring CBA. Rules this team and it's HC was well aware would be in place as a result of owners opting out of the 2006 CBA, although some fans and mediots still don't grasp that.

The biggest mistake or miscalculation they may have made was in not trading Asante under the tag in 2007, although I think contrary to pro bowl voters opinions there were not that many GM's waiting with baited breath to deal for a guy you couldn't have traded for even one 5th at the end of 2005.

 

[neuronet]

Re: Glad Assante Samual holds no grudges...

True, it was just one play in a whole game, but making that interception would have not only enshrined the Patriots franchise as the greatest of all time, but it would have further increased Asante's worth and standing in the NFL as a clutch championship player.

He did go on to make his money with Philly, but he could have had the dough and yet so much more. Dropping that ball ranks up there with one of the biggest sports chokes ever. Don't really care what he does from here on out.

He had history in his hands ... and he dropped it.

Reading this makes me want to cry all over again.

I hate February 3, 2008. I hate it.