Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by sieglo, Sep 10, 2006.
Let the battle begin:
Givens: 3 for 27
Caldwell: 2 for 33
So far I'll call it a draw.
Its early. I was encouraged a little when Brady could finally pass the ball without getting it deflected. Reche caught one to the outside, broke a tackle got about nine yards then got open and made a really nice catch for 26 yards or something. Lets wait and see...not after the first game.
All things being equal after the rocky start - mildly encouraging and worthy of some modest credit after an iffy preseason.
The critical number for the patriots would be the number of catches Givens would have had playing for the patriots.
If it's a "draw" then that means it is advantage-Caldwell because he is much less expensive.
Tell us oh enlightened one, how would Giv have caught deflected passes and sacks?
David "Almighty" Givens would have caught 14 passes for 227 yards and 3 TDs, not including the dropped touchdown that bounced out of Graham's hands in the second half tonight which he would have graciously given to Graham considering that he is in a contract year and needs the statistics to increase his value in the offseason both to other teams and the value focused Patriots.
Not only that, but he would also have thrown himself in the way of Takeo Spikes on the first play of the game, protecting franchise Tom Brady. He would have played also played both ways and sacked Loseman 4 times, including one for an additional Safety. He also would have held for Ghost on his game tying field goal at the end, which of course wouldn't have been game tying because with David Givens playing, Buffalo never would have been in the game.
But....I've got nothing to prove that, since Givens is playing in Tennessee now. We can only hope that Jackson is half as good as ol' DG.
The point is that, if the two are equal players, Caldwell should have a much, much better year, given that Brady is his QB. Do you disagree?
I know what you're saying but for value I disagree given the monsterous difference in cost.
If we are talking value, I agree. I am not saying that we should have bid more than or matched the offer to Givens.
I doubt there's a single person here who honestly thinks Caldwell is as good as Givens - and certainly not in his first year with the team. That would be kind of nutty.
Interesting numbers for Givens in his first game. He's making alot of money to catch more passes than that. We'll see how he fares in Week 2.
The key criteria, however, is value for the dollar. If Caldwell is half the WR Givens is, but takes up less than half the cap space Givens does, then Caldwell is the better value. If it frees up more cap space for other areas (or accelerations), than it is a win for the Pats.
Which then begs the question, WTH are you saying?
There are few here who would not have liked to see David stay - at maybe $3M+ per year. He wanted to be somebodies #1, and he went to the kind of team usually willing to overpay overvalued talent.
Today in NE he would not have made any difference. We struggled on offense much of last season with Givens and Branch on the field, at least this year we have a far more dynamic running game. Erratic execution in the passing game inexplicably was an issue early last season. At lease this year we know it is to be expected early. Last season the Oline sucked in pass blocking, and they couldn't run block for ****. At least run blocking has improved, and hopefully with some hard work over the next few weeks we will improve our pass blocking before we get our franchised injured.
Give Brady time and he will find whoever is out there. Don't give him any time and it wouldn't matter if TO is out there.
Who said they're equal? although they might be. I'm a Given fan BTW.
You continue to miss the point that IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS GAME, WRs didn't matter much because of the factors I cited.
Well I guess that proves it then. I shoulda known. My bad!
Givens was a tough, over-achiever who had an important role on this team. I am surprised he even caught three passes today. I didn't think he'd have more than 30 catches total this year. We'll see.
I do think there are those that posted that they thought we would get as much out of Jackson, Caldwell, and Brown as we got from Branch, Givens, and Brown last year. Perhaps Childress was included, but this was before Gabriel was picked up. Perhaps I have a bad memory. People have certainly stated that we would get as much out of our wide receiving corps this year as last. What conclusion should about the players should we draw if this is the case? Why isn't it reasonable to believe that it is the system and Brady that indeed makes the difference.
In any case, the point I was making is that it not much of a fair fight to compare the production of Givens and Caldwell. I believe that CALDWELL should be expected to win the fight because Brady is so much better a QB.
Givens was horrible his first year with the team. If Caldwell is as bad his first year with the team as Givens was, he should be shot with a rusty gun.
Speak for yourself, John Smith. First year Givnes suckage aside, I do honestly believe that Caldwell is as good as Givens. I think they are equal in talent. Both are good #2 receivers.
I think Felger will be proven wrong on Reche, ashe was wrong with Dillon from Day One. Don't think Felger will ever admit he was wrong with Dillon, and probably not with Caldwell, either.
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