Getting Serious About Linebackers

[spacecrime]

I don't understand all of this paranoia about the state of the linebacking corps.

Certainly, there were major issues last year. But ultimately, where did the Pats falter? Red Zone Offense, that's where.

Exactly right. Everybody who is yapping about LBs and how bad they are are ignoring the fact that those linebackers are not repsonsible for our season ending. It was the O that failed us in Denver, not the D. And specifically the Red Zone O.

So while we all chanted LB LB LB, Belichick set about fixing what was wrong. Drafting offensive players with our top picks.

A similar thing happened in 2002 when it was clearly our D that failed us. In 2003, he drafted D with most of the top picks.

 

[mgteich]

I agree that the offense failed us at the end, which is why bb used the draft almost entirely for offense.

The defense with McGinist and Bruschi did fine at the end of the year.

Exactly right. Everybody who is yapping about LBs and how bad they are are ignoring the fact that those linebackers are not repsonsible for our season ending. It was the O that failed us in Denver, not the D. And specifically the Red Zone O.

So while we all chanted LB LB LB, Belichick set about fixing what was wrong. Drafting offensive players with our top picks.

A similar thing happened in 2002 when it was clearly our D that failed us. In 2003, he drafted D with most of the top picks.

 

[stcjones]

I agree that the offense failed us at the end, which is why bb used the draft almost entirely for offense.

The defense with McGinist and Bruschi did fine at the end of the year.

turnovers killed us in the "end" last year.......tons of turnovers....I for one do feel that we have a bunch of ?'s at LB position this year......and am sure BB will stabilize that position......otherwise it will be a very long and painful season as teams run all over us.....

 

[BelichickFan]

Vrabel came in cheap, but is now a $4M a year player.

Understood, I was just saying that Vrabel was a Belichick cheap LB success story. It seems stupid to say now but Vrabel was nothing more than Beisel when he signed with us.

 

[AzPatsFan]

turnovers killed us in the "end" last year.......tons of turnovers....I for one do feel that we have a bunch of ?'s at LB position this year......and am sure BB will stabilize that position......otherwise it will be a very long and painful season as teams run all over us.....

Stcjones,

you are absolutely right. The Offensive turnovers from a one dimensional offense that couldn't run, lost the Denver game.

The Defense played creditably.

As regards "..a very long and painful season as teams run all over us..." just shows there is a crack in your crystal ball.

Last season the ILB duo of Vrabel and Bruschi did very well, and shut down the run in Top Five fashion. Last time I looked, both are still on the roster. And both will play ILB if necessary. Even better Vrabel now has some experience playing inside and Bruschi and have established some comfort playing together.

Its true that the Coaches don't prefer this match up, but it has ALWAYS been an alternative.

 

[363839]

Yeah, we are going to be soft up the middle I can see that.
We have alot of unproven players in camp and just maybe a couple of these
guys can step up.
I am confident that this will happen because I'm confident in BB and SP's ability to evaluate players.
I f they didn't think these guys were capable, those guys wouldn't be in camp.

I also have hope that when seymour gets back it will help the MLB position out.

Where's that Kool aid?

 

[BelichickFan]

Yeah, we are going to be soft up the middle I can see that.

When Bruschi is back, moving Vrabel to ILB makes us tough as nails up the middle. Or we could stay strong outside and a little weaker up the middle but we aren't going to be soft.

 

[363839]

When Bruschi is back, moving Vrabel to ILB makes us tough as nails up the middle. Or we could stay strong outside and a little weaker up the middle but we aren't going to be soft.

I'm cool with that. But without him it's going to be tough for the D.
But like I said, when the line is jellin with the right playersSeymour.
I'm sure the linebacker play will improve.

 

[mgteich]

Vrabel is indeed a bb success story. Did someone relly say/imply that Vrabel was like Beisel when he arrived?

Understood, I was just saying that Vrabel was a Belichick cheap LB success story. It seems stupid to say now but Vrabel was nothing more than Beisel when he signed with us.

 

[BelichickFan]

Did someone really say/imply that Vrabel was like Beisel when he arrived?

I did

I don't mean a year in. But Vrabel was a guy who'd been a DL, played a bit of LB in Pittsburgh to little effect. He had played in a 3-4, unlike Beisel which is a difference.

Check him out :

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=1257

In 4 years in Pittsburgh, Vrabel had 28 solo tackles, 8 assists, 8 sacks, 2 forced fumbles. That's 4 years production. So I think the comparison is valid.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

I think that Bioli's plan was what we see before us. They wanted a starting line of Colvin, Bruschi, Beisel/Gardner, Vrabel. And behind that they would have tons of back-up projects on the outside, Brown, Tully, Mincey, Woods, ect. In the middle, they would also have potential part time back-ups in Davis and Izzo and possibly Roach.

That looks pretty good on paper. Not quite perfect, but okay.

Problem is that Bruschi got one of the most inconvenient injuries you could get with his wrist, Beisel really did not progress at all and also got injuried. Chad Brown got injuried. Gardner is still learning the position, so Vrabel comes inside, and now you need a back-up on the outside in the form of Tully.

Stuff happens. I think Bioli had a plan, but unfortunately the WORST CASE scenario has happened a week into camp, before Gardner, the rookies, or Beisel or Brown or Tully or anyone could get that one more camp in the system under their belt.

They are not going to draft top stud LBs because it is too much of a gamble to try to project somebody into a 3-4 two gap defense, when UVA is the only school running a similiar system, according to BB. They need to draft former D-Line projects as LBs, or really huge college LBs like Roach, in order to run a two gap system.

I think it is a little overboard to say that we can't guess at all what is going on. Stuff happens, and the injury bug has gutted the position before anybody got up to speed.

We needed to draft some players on Offense, it stinks that Brady never has much of a supporting cast, and it is getting him killed out there.

 

[rookBoston]

I dont think that BB came into this draft thinking "I'm going to solve the problem on O". I think Moroney was on the board and BB saw the future. In the 2nd round, I think he couldn't believe that Jackson was still on the board. The focus was entirely on stealing Jackson away from Denver. And in the 3rd, I think he couldn't believe that Thomas was still on the board, either. I have this pet theory that Thomas was the true "magic" on the Texas championship team, not Young.

With those three picks as a starting point, all top quality players taken alone, its hard to have a defensive draft... which were BB's words post-draft, verbatim.

This is pure BPA logic, and the same logic that landed Ben Watson on the roster, when the team already stocked with TEs. A pure value play. You can draft a good player at a need position, or you can draft a unique guy (a Patriots' guy) at a position where you're already okay.

If I felt that Moroney, Jackson or Thomas was a bad pick, or bad value, I would have a beef. But Moroney looks like one of the finest players coming out of the first round. I still believe that Jackson is the real deal.

I dont think it's a coincidence that they're playing more 4-3 in camp, or that Vrabel is starting to play inside in the 3-4. With Bruschi out, creative solutions are required.

A 4-3 with Vrabel - Warren - Wilfork - Bruschi - Seymour - Green - Colvin is a pretty convincing front seven. I think that's where this team will net out, with Beisel, TBC and Wright coming off the pine. It means less 3-4. And it means we wont be showing a 1-6 front anymore. Our 3rd down D may suffer a bit, but I think we'll be okay.

Posluzny... Moses... Charlie Weis has 4th year DE Victor Abiamiri (smart and strong 265#), and Urban Meyer has a senior LB in Earl Everett (soft spoken, leading tackler, big hitter... but listed at 230#). BB's buddies should groom us some smart, strong, instinctive 250# defensive captain to come in and key this D for the next decade. I thought Abdul Hodge or Chad Greenway might have been the guy.

Then again, despite all this LB talk, Fresno State has a 4th year OC named Kyle Young... and if Koppen decides to sign with the Titans or the Eagles or something like that, our first rounder may go to take one of Mankins's old linemates... a guy Pat Hill thinks may be his best lineman ever.

 

[RayClay]

Clearly, we don't understand pioli's grand plan. We posters have been calling for drafting quality young linebackers for years, and for top free agent additions to replace the aging McGinist, Phifer and Ted Johnson. The need wasn't exactly a secret.

Pioli hit the jackpot with Vrabel and struck out on the other dozen or so. Is that too harsh? Oh sure, we can believe that this year will be Banta-Cain's year, or Alexander's, or Beisel's, or Brown's. After Bruschi's injury last year, pioli had the draft and the rest of the offseason to address what had not been addressed for years: the retiring of Phifer, and rapid aging of Ted Johnson and McGinist. Did we really have a perfect plan that was upset by the retiring of Ted Johnson? Did the team doctors really not have a clue regarding Ted Johnson? Would the aging Johnson really made that much difference? Surely, they didn't count on Bruschi coming back last year.

But pioli had a solution, sign up Biesel and Chad Brown. Draft Claridge. After all, we had Alexander and Banta-Cain.
------------------------------------------

And this year, we parted company with McGinist, and went forth with our best laid plans, a late draft choice, a couple of UDFA's and Gardner.

Surely, pioli and bb are not worried about linebackers. They never have. It is the fans that don't understand that we again have one of the best linebacking units in the league.

Why do I find this so hard to believe? It must be because I don't understand pioli's grand plan. We all know that bb can do anything. We won with Troy at nickel. We won with Davis at safety. Could we win with Davis at inside linebacker? We might, but why have this as Option #1 before the season starts; surely we can better prepare for the season!

Those who believe that late round rookies can do what veterans have never been able to do have no issues. After all, Mincey, Woods and Roach will step in immediately, learn bb's system, and be major contributers.

We have waited for the drafting of a top linebacker; we have waited for trades; we have waited for free agents; and we will wait some more.

I only disagree with one thing there. They're damn worried I'll bet.

Who knows why they don't seem to find the LBs they want?

You'll notice BB is puffing up the confidence of TBC and Beisel at the same time he's trying out a large number of free agents.

There's obviously a problem with the process of linebacker procurement. They'll motivate and patch, but I don't think they're real happy with the talent they've assembled.

Hard to dig out a Vrabel when you need to. Maybe they were after a backup like Vrabel but the other team got wise?

They certainly don't seem to want to spend a high pick on one, since we don't use the average college linebacker type.

 

[BelichickFan]

You'll notice BB is puffing up the confidence of TBC and Beisel at the same time he's trying out a large number of free agents.

Yeah, that was a little too out of character for Belichick to take it at face value. I'm not sure if it was for the players' confidence or to tell the media to STFU because they don't know anything - kind of like Jim Mora's "you think you know but you don't and you never will" rant but in a nicer way.

For the nickel situations with 3 LB I like TBC-Vrabel-Colvin as the three, even with Bruschi back.

For non nickel, I like Vrabel and Bruschi inside with Colvin at ROLB. For LOLB I like a rotation of Mincey and TBC depending on whether they need a run support guy (Mincey) or a pass rusher (TBC).

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

You'll notice BB is puffing up the confidence of TBC and Beisel at the same time he's trying out a large number of free agents.

There's obviously a problem with the process of linebacker procurement. They'll motivate and patch, but I don't think they're real happy with the talent they've assembled.

I disagree, I think BB is letting "on the field" work determine between TBC and Beisel who gets to play.

As far as the street FA, they seem to be more ILB FA, than OLB. Furthermore, Beisel seems healthy enough to play the game, but he is playing with the 2nd stringers. Somehow those two things don't look good for the young Mr. Beisel, even though I hope he pulls it out.

As far as our LB plan, there was no FA that I could think of that BB could have signed for squad this year. The young ILB Bobby Carpenter for the Cowboys was taken before us.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Serious About Linebackers

from the crew including TBC, mincey, woods, roach, beisel, and brown, i only expect to find 1 guy who can get the job done and start. One or two LBs wll join izzo and davis as ST players. but ya need 5-6 LBs to make a 3-4 work. 4 wears out the guys on the field.

IMHO a 3-4 defense FEATURES the LBs. it's used because a team has more good LBs than DLs. it puts the team's best defensive players on the field.

IMHO the DLs are the defense's best players. seymour, wilfork, warren, green, are as good a set as there is in the AFC. trouble is, there are only 4 proven DLs. so there's a shortage. patriots need either a 5th established LB or a 5th proven DL. both would be bettet. we have neither. maybe switch back and forth, 4-3 and 3-4. go to the patriots card deck, 2-5, 1-6, 5-2, all that dtuff.
need to pull a rabbit out of the hat here. want to see what bb/sp do. would be nice if Ted the Great or Bobby Hamilton were still here

Gotta disagree with you regarding some of your assumptions.
1) The Patriots do have 5 proven D-linemen. Wright more than proved to me that he is capable of being in the rotation last year.

2) As for LB, yes, it would be nice to have a 5th established LB. However, at some point, the Pats have to develop the position from within. Trying to make a decision on Beisel after 1 pre-season game where he wasn't on the field with the regular defense is just plain silly because you don't know if he is trying to compensate for other people or not. Why not wait until the 3rd pre-season game when the starters get most of the reps before making a decision?

3) Who is this "Ted the Great" you are referring to? Ted Washington? Why would it be good to have Bobby Hamilton here sitting on the bench?

 

[mgteich]

Re: Serious About Linebackers

If Beisel is #5, who is #4, the fourth established LB.

Gotta disagree with you regarding some of your assumptions.
1) The Patriots do have 5 proven D-linemen. Wright more than proved to me that he is capable of being in the rotation last year.

2) As for LB, yes, it would be nice to have a 5th established LB. However, at some point, the Pats have to develop the position from within. Trying to make a decision on Beisel after 1 pre-season game where he wasn't on the field with the regular defense is just plain silly because you don't know if he is trying to compensate for other people or not. Why not wait until the 3rd pre-season game when the starters get most of the reps before making a decision?

3) Who is this "Ted the Great" you are referring to? Ted Washington? Why would it be good to have Bobby Hamilton here sitting on the bench?