Get rid of Donte, Keep Asante

[letekro]

People said about Brady: Get rid of both of them and let's get some new blood in here? I waded through a lot of Bledsoe vs. Brady posts and I never heard anything remotely like that. Telling people to stfu and posting stuff like that in retort makes me wonder if your not just a troll from another team trying to start crap.

Learn how to read. He said Asante is only good because of the system.

Maybe you should read all the relevant posts before you accuse me of being a troll.

I'll b waiting 4 your apology, which I'm sure will not be forthcoming.

 

[letekro]

It's not ignorant at all. Asante benefits greatly from coaching and the system.

Other players who've left Branch, Givens, Patten haven't done as well in other systems.

You'll see when they get rid of him and he's a good but not great CB. Until then, don't tell people to 'stfu' as it's not your board.

Basically, I think they could take a good athletic CB from college and make him a very good CB pretty quickly...and he'd cost about 1/8th as much as Samuel, if that.

Why have all these draft picks if you have no place to put them? 8M per year is steep. I think he's good, just not as good as he thinks he is. They need to save money somewhere if they want to sign moss at 8M per or so...what he brings, can't be taught, IMO. He's unique.

I just have a problem with people making the "system" argument. What is it about the system that helps Asante cover so well? He plays just as well in zone as when he's man2man. He tackles well. Unless you're prepared to explain what it is about the "system" that makes him good (which you clearly aren't), then like I said...

Also, Branch and Givens were fine players for us, but no one in their right mind would claim that either one of them was even one of the 20 best WR's in the league. Branch has been about as good as he was with us - above average. Givens has suffered catastrophic injuries. Patten is playing well right now. And so is, believe it or not, old Ty Law. So don't give me that media garbage about "players suck when they leave the patriots."

By all accounts, including Scott Pioli and Bill Belichick who paid him like a top-5 corner this year, Samuel is an ELITE corner. There are some that would say he is the best CB in the league. So, again, it may be impossible to resign him at $9-10M per year, but I bet we try.

 

[sebman2112]

Did Lee Evans even get a catch last night, given Samuel was covering him all night?

edit: answered my own question.

1-10-BUF 18 (Q1 14:53) (Shotgun) 7-J.Losman pass deep left to 83-L.Evans pushed ob at BUF 34 for 16 yards (27-E.Hobbs). Caught along sideline at BUF 34.
2-10-BUF 30 (Q1 6:28) 7-J.Losman pass short right to 83-L.Evans pushed ob at BUF 39 for 9 yards (22-A.Samuel). Caught along sideline at BUF 39.
2-10-BUF 41 (Q1 5:15) 7-J.Losman to BUF 30 for -11 yards (97-J.Green). FUMBLES (97-J.Green), and recovers at BUF 25. 7-J.Losman pass short right to 86-M.Gaines to NE 46 for 13 yards (22-A.Samuel).
3-6-BUF 33 (Q2 3:05) (Shotgun) 7-J.Losman pass deep middle to 83-L.Evans to BUF 49 for 16 yards (37-R.Harrison). Caught at BUF 49. New England challenged the pass completion ruling, and the play was REVERSED. (Shotgun) 7-J.Losman pass incomplete deep middle to 83-L.Evans. Pass bounced to receiver at BUF 49.
2-7-NE 34 (Q3 6:18) 7-J.Losman pass incomplete short left to 83-L.Evans (27-E.Hobbs) [75-V.Wilfork]. Receiver and coverage along sideline at NE 22.
1-10-BUF 47 (Q4 11:55) 7-J.Losman pass incomplete deep middle to 83-L.Evans (27-E.Hobbs). Receiver and coverage at NE 5.
1-10-BUF 35 (Q4 3:49) 22-F.Jackson right tackle to BUF 38 for 3 yards (22-A.Samuel, 94-T.Warren).
3-5-BUF 40 (Q4 2:24) (Shotgun) 7-J.Losman pass short left to 83-L.Evans to BUF 46 for 6 yards (27-E.Hobbs). Caught in flat at BUF 43.
2-6-midfield (Q4 1:12) (Shotgun) 7-J.Losman pass short left to 83-L.Evans ran ob at NE 41 for 9 yards. Caught along sideline at NE 41.

Asante was covering Evans most of the game and essentially took him out of the game. Plus made a tackle on a running play and on the broken-play fumble-recovery-scramble-pass for a 1st down routine. Not a bad performance. Did roughly the same to Reggie Wayne too.

Did you pay attention to the fact that it was Hobbs on Evens during some of those plays you quoted? Lee Evans has usually been covered by Hobbs the past few years, and for some reason, he generally does absolutely nothing against the Patriots.

Asante Samuel covered Moorehead and others a lot more than he covered Reggie Wayne against the Colts. Hobbs got a lot of time against Wayne in this years game, and he covered him for the most part in the AFCCG. I agree that Asante is very good, but let's not forget what's actually taken place in these games. Oh, and I like how that was the first TD Hobbs has given up this season, and some of us are getting on him for it, when Asante had already given up 3 TD's prior to the Buffalo game. Let's also forget Hobbs' heads up play where he cought the fumble out of the air, and returned it for a TD in this very same Buffalo game.

I'm going to tell all those saying "Keep Asante, and let Stallworth go" that you are completely off. That's right, Asante Samuel has nothing to do with NE's ability to keep Stallworth past this season, and Semual's leaving won't be effected by Stallworth. Here's the deal, NE has already offered the guy a decent contract, and about the max they were willing to offer. Samuel said the offer was almost insulting, and he wanted $10M+ per year, with something like $30M+ over the first three years. He wouldn't agree to sign his tender that earns him $7.79M for one year, until NE agreed not to franchise him next year, if they won 12 games.

Asante IS going to hit free agency, someone WILL give him what he wants, and it is NOT going to be the Patriots.

Sorry, but I really believe you are dreaming if you think Asante Samuel's wearing a Patriots uniform in 2008. Yea, I'd like to keep the guy to, and hopefully he'll come around, but I wouldn't bank on it.

Also, in the past BB and Pioli have proven more than capable of finding replacements in the secondary, and they've been able to get by with other teams practice squad players, so I don't understand why any of you worry so much about Asante moving on. Oh, Let's also remember NE has some pretty nice draft picks this year, and there is going to be a decent amount of top level DB's in this years draft for NE to choose from.

 

[mcbee]

I just have a problem with people making the "system" argument. What is it about the system that helps Asante cover so well? He plays just as well in zone as when he's man2man. He tackles well. Unless you're prepared to explain what it is about the "system" that makes him good (which you clearly aren't), then like I said...

Also, Branch and Givens were fine players for us, but no one in their right mind would claim that either one of them was even one of the 20 best WR's in the league. Branch has been about as good as he was with us - above average. Givens has suffered catastrophic injuries. Patten is playing well right now. And so is, believe it or not, old Ty Law. So don't give me that media garbage about "players suck when they leave the patriots."

By all accounts, including Scott Pioli and Bill Belichick who paid him like a top-5 corner this year, Samuel is an ELITE corner. There are some that would say he is the best CB in the league. So, again, it may be impossible to resign him at $9-10M per year, but I bet we try.

They paid him like an ELITE corner for a one year franchise, which is higher cap wise as there is no guaranteed money after that year...I don't think it means they're willing to pay him that much on average.

Part of the "system" as I put it, is just the coaching system. They took an UDFA rookie and played most of the year they won the super bowl against Philly. BB has a background as a DB coach and defensive coach and apparantly can take a good college DB and make a starter out of him.

I don't think Samuel is the "best in the league", not even close. He misses tackles and players do get open on him. Nice tackle of Wayne in the Colts game for a PI...at least Hobbs (not that I think he is as good as Samuel) interference was a bad call.

He wants what, 2.5x the money of Vrabel? 2x of Colvin or Thomas? As much as Brady almost? As much as Moss will get? 2nd highest paid player on the team? For that reason alone, I think they should get rid of him. He just isn't being reasonable. Borderline delusional, IMO.

They made him, they can make another just like him.

Who won't be signed at top $? Mankins? He's good, sign him! Moss? For sure. Watson? Yep! Sanders? Yep! Wilfork? You bet! You can't sign everyone to veteran contracts, the pie is only so big.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

We're paying AS $8M this year, so I guess you mean, we would'nt pay him that kind of money over several years? To me, a CB who can shut down his side of the field is one of the few players worth that kind of money - only a QB and Moss-like WR have greater impacts on the game. I'm not saying it can be done, but I think at the very least we make him a near-market offer.

Who has Asante "shut down" per se?

Hobbs seems to be drawing the primary receiver on the somewhat offensively anemic teams we have faced.

Whether or not Asante is resigned will have less to do with what we can afford than what we are willing to pay. They will not overpay. They can afford to keep them all if Moss and Samuel are remotely reasonable. Somehow I don't think Bill wants to go back to just managing. If Moss goes down I want Stallworth on the field, not CJ or Gaffney who have done nothing to prove they can be a #1 in this or any offense...

 

[letekro]

Who has Asante "shut down" per se?

Hobbs seems to be drawing the primary receiver on the somewhat offensively anemic teams we have faced.

Here we go again. Patriots don't flip their CB's. Knowing this, teams may try to line up their #1 against Hobbs. Ever wonder why you see Hobbs 10-15 times a game and Samuel only 3-5 times? Because teams don't throw near Samuel if they have a choice.

 

[mcbee]

Here we go again. Patriots don't flip their CB's. Knowing this, teams may try to line up their #1 against Hobbs. Ever wonder why you see Hobbs 10-15 times a game and Samuel only 3-5 times? Because teams don't throw near Samuel if they have a choice.

Right as rain. But it still doesn't mean he's worth $10M. The art of the team is getting the best players you can get...provided they all fit under the cap. Getting rid of him frees money. It's not that he's "not good".

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I just have a problem with people making the "system" argument. What is it about the system that helps Asante cover so well? He plays just as well in zone as when he's man2man. He tackles well. Unless you're prepared to explain what it is about the "system" that makes him good (which you clearly aren't), then like I said...

Also, Branch and Givens were fine players for us, but no one in their right mind would claim that either one of them was even one of the 20 best WR's in the league. Branch has been about as good as he was with us - above average. Givens has suffered catastrophic injuries. Patten is playing well right now. And so is, believe it or not, old Ty Law. So don't give me that media garbage about "players suck when they leave the patriots."

By all accounts, including Scott Pioli and Bill Belichick who paid him like a top-5 corner this year, Samuel is an ELITE corner. There are some that would say he is the best CB in the league. So, again, it may be impossible to resign him at $9-10M per year, but I bet we try.

Bill explained it last year in the end of the season wrap on WEEI. Said he respects all Asante did to develop himself, but coaching and system get some of that credit too. Said Dean worked with him tirelessly on technique. Remember, he wasn't valued very highly throughout the 2005 season and started the 2006 season as the RCB to Hobbs LCB, a position he claims he is uncomfortable with probably because it is perceived as the 2nd CB in a tandem. He was always something of a ballhawk with good instincts, but he didn't learn to catch the errant pass until last season. In this system Bill can put a ballhawk in position to capitalize on their skill without compromising the entire defense in an undisciplined fashion...

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Let some other paniced GM over pay for Asante. Ask youself just how well Denver is doing with their pair of highly paid corners this season? I'd love to keep the guy but how many times do we need to go over the fact that he wants TOP dollar and the Pats won't pay it? Not value received.

That being said, the Pats will likely draft a CB high next year and should be able to keep Blue.

 

[mcbee]

Bill explained it last year in the end of the season wrap on WEEI. Said he respects all Asante did to develop himself, but coaching and system get some of that credit too. Said Dean worked with him tirelessly on technique. Remember, he wasn't valued very highly throughout the 2005 season and started the 2006 season as the RCB to Hobbs LCB, a position he claims he is uncomfortable with probably because it is perceived as the 2nd CB in a tandem. He was always something of a ballhawk with good instincts, but he didn't learn to catch the errant pass until last season. In this system Bill can put a ballhawk in position to capitalize on their skill without compromising the entire defense in an undisciplined fashion...

Wait, what? The "coaching and the system" help him? Who is this clown Belichick? Tell him to STFU. Asante gets Champ Bailey money! Now! Hand it over.

They trained him, they can train another. Maybe Gay and Andrews or a vet CB who wants to play with a good team will step up.

Should they pay him if he wants 12M per year? Yes? How about 15M? 20? How about A-Rod money? Why not? It's not like he could ever be replaced.

 

[sieglo]

They trained him, they can train another. Maybe Gay and Andrews or a vet CB who wants to play with a good team will step up.

Should they pay him if he wants 12M per year? Yes? How about 15M? 20? How about A-Rod money? Why not? It's not like he could ever be replaced.

Asante is clearly the Darth Maul of this operation.

 

[letekro]

Right as rain. But it still doesn't mean he's worth $10M. The art of the team is getting the best players you can get...provided they all fit under the cap. Getting rid of him frees money. It's not that he's "not good".

Okay, I understand that....but you're changing your tune a little bit. Before, you were saying he is good "because of the system". If he is willing to take a small discount, I could see Belioli making a good faith offer in the $8-8.5M range. Of course this all depends on the willingness of others to restructure, available FA, draft scouting, etc. No one is saying pay him $10M per.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Okay, I understand that....but you're changing your tune a little bit. Before, you were saying he is good "because of the system". If he is willing to take a small discount, I could see Belioli making a good faith offer in the $8-8.5M range. Of course this all depends on the willingness of others to restructure, available FA, draft scouting, etc. No one is saying pay him $10M per.

There last best offer on a long term deal was $6M. If he is willing to consider his franchise tag as a pre payment of half his signing bonus, they may get a deal done. If he still wants what he wanted last year, he's gone.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Here we go again. Patriots don't flip their CB's. Knowing this, teams may try to line up their #1 against Hobbs. Ever wonder why you see Hobbs 10-15 times a game and Samuel only 3-5 times? Because teams don't throw near Samuel if they have a choice.

They flip everything else, so maybe Asante has something to do with that. They kept throwing at Asante last season until he had double digit INTS. This year is a carryover, and once they realize he's tied with Junior Seau for INTS they will pick on him again until he makes them wish they hadn't. Asante is a very good cover corner. Not as good in man as Hobbs who is still learning his craft in year 3 when Asante was worth a bag of balls on the open market. $6M per was a fair offer last year. Probably still is. He's not an $8M AAV against the cap player. Absent a great pass rush an outstanding front 7 he's not a singular player who elevates a D by his mere presence. You can only play the schedule, but 6 of his 10 picks last year came against Culpepper and Grossman.

 

[Maroney TD]

Wait, what? The "coaching and the system" help him? Who is this clown Belichick? Tell him to STFU. Asante gets Champ Bailey money! Now! Hand it over.

They trained him, they can train another. Maybe Gay and Andrews or a vet CB who wants to play with a good team will step up.

Should they pay him if he wants 12M per year? Yes? How about 15M? 20? How about A-Rod money? Why not? It's not like he could ever be replaced.

BB certainly thinks more of him than you do since they franchised him and paid him top dollar this season to come back. Of course you probably know more than BB though.

Thats a lot of money for one year to pay for a system CB huh? BB must be slacking.

 

[ALP]

umm, guys, lets stay away from the system CB, no way to prove it...

also if the system makes our Cb's look great, wuts up with Hobbs?

either way, without takine Donte's like 8-10 mil cap hit next season and we cut him, we have that space for next yr....

i think Asante will be willing to take 6-8 a yr....and i dont think thats TOO much to ask....

replacing Donte will be a piece of cake, same cant be said for Asante...

also, Kelly wont be here next yr either most likely, and if he is, not that much money, and Colvin will restructure...

 

[Dragda]

Learn how to read. He said Asante is only good because of the system.

Maybe you should read all the relevant posts before you accuse me of being a troll.

I'll b waiting 4 your apology, which I'm sure will not be forthcoming.

If I offended you I apologize. Your post wasn't very clear to me.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Asante will be asking for 10M per year. Nate Clements money.
IMO the Pats won't want to pay that.
If Asante accepts a lower offer, say 8M per year then it can get done, otherwise he will probably be gone after this year.

 

[mcbee]

BB certainly thinks more of him than you do since they franchised him and paid him top dollar this season to come back. Of course you probably know more than BB though.

Thats a lot of money for one year to pay for a system CB huh? BB must be slacking.

Franchising is renting the player, the long term contract is what he wanted.

They don't have a replacement ready, but I don't think long term they want to pay him that much. How do I know? Why haven't they signed him if they are?

Do you realize you're mocking BB with your quote? He was the one who said Samuel benefits from the 'system'.

 

[sebman2112]

Here we go again. Patriots don't flip their CB's. Knowing this, teams may try to line up their #1 against Hobbs. Ever wonder why you see Hobbs 10-15 times a game and Samuel only 3-5 times? Because teams don't throw near Samuel if they have a choice.

The Patriots usually don't flip CB's, but they have done this from time to time. Also, Samuel was getting thrown at somewhat often earlier in the year (he's given up 3 TD's), but he's progressed from the start of the season, and teams don't throw his way as often anymore.