Welcome to PatsFans.com

Gaza situation

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Holy Diver, Jun 1, 2010.

  1. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    10,800
    Likes Received:
    6
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0

    Last edited: Jun 1, 2010
  2. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    37,505
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +29 / 0 / -5

    Israel is slipping, stuff like this used to be a piece of cake for them.
  3. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    5,384
    Likes Received:
    15
    Ratings:
    +20 / 0 / -1

    #54 Jersey

    Agreed. Poor choice of tactics by the Israelis. Disabling the screws and towing them to Ashdod would have been a lot smarter, and even if they were going to do it this way, they should have broadcast it live. Raw footage of the first moments here.

    YouTube - Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers
    YouTube - Demonstrators Use Violence Against Israeli Navy Soldiers Attempting to Board Ship
  4. Leave No Doubt

    Leave No Doubt PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    May 10, 2008
    Messages:
    5,609
    Likes Received:
    10
    Ratings:
    +10 / 0 / -0


    :yeahthat:
    10ch
  5. Real World

    Real World Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    26,287
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0 / -1

    I'm not saying that gunning people down was right or not, but it's kind of stupid to attack armed commandos, throwing one overboard, and not expect to be shot at. The video certainly helps Israel in the sense that the world can see that the activists weren't singing kumbaya, while tossing rose pedals at the Israeli's feet. Whether or not they needed to gun people down though, I don't know.
  6. Stokes

    Stokes Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,422
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

  7. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    37,505
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +29 / 0 / -5

    This should be a lesson to Israel "don't listen to the crazy american liberals, next time leave the stupid paint guns home and bring some AK47's, Bazooka's and Flame Throwers"

    :bricks:
  8. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,671
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    Wow.

    How could anyone disagree with Israel and its supporters? I mean, so far, they've behaved perfectly acceptable in all of their actions to date while their enemies have done nothing but threaten and murder Israelis and destroy their country....I mean...what else is there to say? Palestinians are savages and Israelis are good...right?
  9. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    37,505
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +29 / 0 / -5

    Not in my book, they should both be taken to the woodshed, my posts were just disbeliefs that realizing Israel's track record that they would actually board that ship with "paint guns"

    But again I have to say "Israel is the kid in the playground surrounded by his enemy's" FIGHT OR DIE
  10. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    40,315
    Likes Received:
    19
    Ratings:
    +19 / 0 / -0

    Sadly America has so much invested, something like 2.5 billion dollars a year to provide a coherent position.. this has gone on too long, and there have been too many people killed...

    This will turn into another mess... and there are no answers.
  11. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,671
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    I hear an Israeli soldier was hurt. Well...that ought to be enough to justify a military operation into Gaza to wipe out some towns and kill a few dozen "terrorists" (and their kids and wives). Hey, they asked for it, right?

    ...round 63....
  12. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    10,800
    Likes Received:
    6
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0

    The only solution:

    Give the Jewish people Texas.
  13. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,671
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    What did the Jews ever do to you?
  14. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    10,800
    Likes Received:
    6
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0

    Me? nothing ... I was born in Lakewood, NJ ... I loves me some jews.

    Is moving to Texas that bad?

    I'm actually serious, since we seem to be the only country that has their back. Since it was the Germans who tried to eliminate them, shouldn't it really be us or Germany who flips the land for them. I understand that they claim its their holy land and all, but so do other faiths.

    This entire thing is getting dumb.

    Its almost like they WANT armageddon.....wait a second....
  15. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2006
    Messages:
    17,226
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +12 / 0 / -0

    When i saw this on the news the first thing i thought was WoW did they F**K UP This Time..........They've got to stop the Heavy Handedness.
  16. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    5,384
    Likes Received:
    15
    Ratings:
    +20 / 0 / -1

    #54 Jersey

    The odd thing is that, based on this and other posts, I suspect you take the inverse position, which isn't any more reasonable.
  17. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ---- JAG ----- PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    36,493
    Likes Received:
    18
    Ratings:
    +25 / 1 / -0

    #87 Jersey

    So ... let's see ... liberals are angry because Israel capped a few liberals ... the old sticks and stones thing.

    If these people were home watching a reality show they would still be alive.
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2010
  18. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,671
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    As a matter of fact, I don't take the inverse position. I realize that Hamas is a bad gang of thugs just like the Israeli military government. Both societies have a lot to answer for in terms of violence, arrogance and religious idiocy.

    Where there are few who take the position that Israel is always bad and that the Palestinians are always justified, there seems to be many, many more in the media, government and the population who automatically defer to Israeli "self defense" excuses for their autrocities. Israel and their American backers always come out on top in terms of aid, political clout and popular support based on mystical prophesies and biblical bullsh!t. No one likes a loser and people tend to back a big winner like Israel.

    Yay!, Israel! Kick some ass!
  19. Real World

    Real World Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    26,287
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0 / -1

    Not for nothing though, but the jews have been the victim of multiple extermination attempts, so you can kind see where they'd have somewhat of a zero tolerance type attitude. In '48, the whole of the ME tried to wipe them off the map, an a few years earlier, a dude in Germany mutilated millions of them. I'm not a go israel type of guy, and I personally don't think either side will be happy until the other is anihilated, but I can't completely blame the Israeli's for having a type of shoot first, ask questions later attitude. I think it's counter productive in most cases, but my guess is they feel diplomacy is a loser prop.
  20. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    40,315
    Likes Received:
    19
    Ratings:
    +19 / 0 / -0

    nobody is right if everybody is wrong..
  21. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,671
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    Yeah, I get that, too, but there has to be a limit to tolerating bad behavior by one of our "allies" just because they're suffering from some kinda national Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. I don't know what the specific solution(s) would be, but it's never good to enable, condone or ignore such behavior- that's for sure.
  22. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    24,234
    Likes Received:
    15
    Ratings:
    +16 / 0 / -3



    How many missiles do Hamas and Hezbollugh get to fire at civilians before the Israeli's get to be a bit touchy about it?
  23. TBradyOwnsYou

    TBradyOwnsYou Rookie

    Joined:
    May 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,586
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    I'm a fan of Israel simply because they're pretty much the only country on Earth that is willing to talk the talk and then immediately walk the walk. Everyone else either doesn't talk at all, or they talk and then debate endlessly if they should walk or not.
  24. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,671
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    You've just made my point about Israeli apologists who think that the whole dynamic can be simplistically described as:

    1. Bad Palestinians attack Israel with rockets
    2. Good Israel defends itself by killing 10X as many Palestinians
    3. Yay! Israel!

    Israel destroys Gaza dairy for second time
    Rami Almeghari writing from the occupied Gaza Strip, Live from Palestine, 5 April 2010


    [​IMG]

    It was not a chemical plant, nor a nuclear facility, nor a manufacturer of weapons of mass destruction. But almost all the rubble of the entirely destroyed factory was covered in white, with white chunks everywhere. These were pieces of cheese, butter and yoghurt -- some of the products made by the Dalloul dairy factory in southern Gaza City.

    Israeli warplanes bombed the factory shortly after midnight last Thursday through Friday night, 1-2 April, leaving the building, all its equipment and the distribution van completely destroyed.

    "At 12:30am we heard a very loud explosion nearby," said owner Mutassim Dalloul as he inspected the wreckage on Friday morning. "I got downstairs to find my factory completely destroyed. Everything inside, including the machines, the power generator and all our products, [was destroyed]."


    Google Image Result for http://electronicintifada.net/artman2/uploads/2/100405-dairy-gaza.jpg
  25. Leave No Doubt

    Leave No Doubt PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    May 10, 2008
    Messages:
    5,609
    Likes Received:
    10
    Ratings:
    +10 / 0 / -0

    The Rachael Corrie continues to sail:

    The article also raises some interesting questions:
    The Lone Ship of the Freedom Flotilla: The Rachel Corrie MV Continues to Sail Towards Gaza in Defiance of Israeli Threats
    *** Rachael Corrie was the girl who was bulldozed to death at the gaza striphttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie
  26. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    5,384
    Likes Received:
    15
    Ratings:
    +20 / 0 / -1

    #54 Jersey

    Wistah,

    I don't think his question is unreasonable. What do you think Israel should do about the rockets being fired into Sderot and Ashkelon?
  27. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,671
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    I wouldn't think it was unreasonable either if it was framed in full context. Ignoring the facts from either point of view is dishonest, and I'm not going to get pulled into a pissing match about who started what first. The answer to the question of why Palestinians lob rockets is directly related to why Israelis have pushed Gazans to the crappiest, tiniest square of land in the area while blockading relief efforts and controlling all of the extranational movements of the supposed "free" people who are trapped in that little box of desert.

    Honestly, I could give a crap if Israel and their Arab neighbors destroy each other. I don't care about Sderot and Ashkelon any more than I care about Dayr al Balah or Rafah. What bothers me is how our government (and our money) fuels the fires over there because so many of our citizens have been lied to by religious frauds and lobbyists who want to perpetuate their mythologies about the importance of Israel in their end-times prophesies.
  28. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    5,384
    Likes Received:
    15
    Ratings:
    +20 / 0 / -1

    #54 Jersey

    It seems to me that you are already convinced that primary fault for the ills of the Middle East lies with Israel. That's fine, it's how you feel, and I won't discount that.
  29. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    19,531
    Likes Received:
    41
    Ratings:
    +45 / 0 / -2

    Most folks here remember me as a pretty "go Israel" guy from our last dozen go-rounds on these topics. Nikolai may remember me as especially suspicious of Israeli actions that seem self-evidently stupid. This falls into the latter category, and I think it fits right in with my interpretation of Israeli actions in the last year or so.

    To wit, I don't think the Israeli mistakes are mistakes in the sense of "they had no idea what they were doing." I simply cannot envision anybody being stupid enough to board ships from helicopters or naval vessels, and claim they were attacked. There must be something more to it than that.

    I just don't think they are insane enough, or think that we are insane enough, to claim they were being "attacked" when "innocently storming aboard on the high seas (international waters) wearing balaclavas and heavily armed."

    They were being heavy-handed. It was for a reason. They are being absurd in their justifications. This is also for a reason. Frankly I cannot see it as anything other than a provocation and a purposeful deal-breaker, vis a vis Egypt.

    What's generally lost in the present coverage is that Israel was enforcing a joint blockade of Gaza alongside Egypt. Egypt wasn't going to stand for the Israeli move, and opened their border with Gaza as a response. I believe this was a temporary measure. Egypt, in other words, cannot be seen as tacitly supporting Israel's actions, by being unquestioning allies of Israel in this regard, as little use as Egypt has for Hamas.

    Egypt has its own Muslim Brotherhood to think about, and its own popular sentiment. Hosni Mubarak is probably in no mood to follow in Anwar Sadat's footsteps. Israel knows this.

    The bigger picture is that the present Israeli government strikes me as dangerously provocative, even by the standards of the region - which doesn't have any.

    Caveat - if you know me at all, you know I consider Israel head and shoulders the "better" country than Egypt, or Syria, or [your country here.] I think a lot of other things that are flattering about Israel.[/caveat]

    I just do not think that this action is a simple enforcement of a blockade.

    These flotilla ships are pretty easy targets, and could have been handled in other ways - deprived of locomotion then towed to port, for example, as Nikolai suggests. Even if you are boarding, why not wait until they are in your national waters, or the waters you claim national sovereignty over ("occupied" waters)?

    The point of this action was the international outcry; the point of the absurd statements about the heavily armed soldiers acting in "self-defense" were authored with such an outcry in mind.

    Trying to figure out why is beyond me. I could see trying to drive a wedge between themselves and Egypt, for example. I could see claiming the Hamas camp re-armed during the Gaza frontier opening as a pretext for a strike into Gaza. Yet those pretexts are provided free of charge, even now.

    One thing I'm sure of is that Israel takes these actions as a sort of Middle Eastern form of twitter - they're sending around messages. What the hell I'm supposed to make of them, I have no idea, other than "do not FU(K with us." (Oh and by the way, Egypt, do not try to work with us either.)

    The actual outcome is to publicize a blockade--which one must imagine was working and which nobody was really paying attention to--and depriving the blockade of legitimacy and temporarily breaking the cordon on the Egyptian border.

    This doesn't seem like something of great benefit to the Israeli state or people.

    Thoughts?

    PFnV
  30. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,671
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    It doesn't seem like that for you. You're just saying that to perpetuate the myth that there are only two viewpoints on this battle if immature cultures. It must infuriate you that I can't just blame one or the other party since you can't seem to understand that I can blame both sides at the same time. No need to discount anything because, as I've repeatedly said in this and other threads ad nauseum is that I blame Israel for hating the Arabs, Arabs for hating the Israelis, and backwards Americans for falling for the biblical bullsh!t that keeps this nightmare going for both the Israelis and the Arabs. As usual, you and 13 (and people like you) refuse to see the complexities of the situation and insist on making it a black-and-white thing because that's the easiest thing to do. Pick a side and make everyone who disagrees with you represent the "other" side.

    Do...you...understand?

Share This Page