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Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by RI Patriots fan, Nov 7, 2013.

  1. RI Patriots fan

    RI Patriots fan In the Starting Line-Up

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    I was wondering how many of the players on the Patriots' current roster (including IR) will make either the NFL Hall of Fame or the Patriots Hall of Fame. This is my guess:


    NFL Hall of Famers:

    Tom Brady
    Rob Gronkowski
    Chandler Jones


    Patriots Hall of Famers:

    Vince Wilfork
    Jerod Mayo
    Logan Mankins
    Nate Solder
    Aaron Dobson
    Stevan Ridley
    Devin McCourty
    Aqib Talib
    Stephen Gostkowski
     
  2. Gronk

    Gronk On the Roster

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    NFL Hall
    Brady is the only guy who would pass the "if he retires tomorrow" test

    Gronk just needs to play longer. He is clearly a game-breaking, defense-shattering talent and performer and I honestly believe his injury status directly impacted the outcome of the last 2 Super Bowls. Can't say that about very many players. He's about 2-3 years from staking his claim as the best TE to every step on the field. But if we're talking HOF, he's gotta play 'em.

    Wilfork has an outside shot, I think, depending on how prevalent guys dominating at the position he plays become over the next decade or so. Cortez Kennedy took 12 years to get in, I think that was partly because people weren't totally sure if what he did was that special until years later. That's probably the same for Vince. It's just not a glamour position.

    Pats Hall

    Brady, Gronk, Wilfork clearly
    Mayo, Ghost, Mankins are solid calls
    Everyone else is pure speculation, I thinks
     
  3. Wilfork#75

    Wilfork#75 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    I think its WAY to early to even think of Chandler Jones making any HOF. Brady is obviously a lock as is BB. If Gronk can stay healthy he has a chance to go down as one of the best ever. Wilfork also has an outside chance. I agree with Gronk that Mayo, Mankins and Ghost all have a shot at Patriots Hall with McCourty another decent chance. I think for a lot of guys its going to come down to whether or not this team can win another (hopefully multiple) rings.
     
  4. RI Patriots fan

    RI Patriots fan In the Starting Line-Up

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    Well, I was looking for speculation. I was just curious what people thought based upon what they've seen so far.
     
  5. Get it shawtaay

    Get it shawtaay Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    I'd say, based on what he have seen/know, Brady is a lock. Gronkowski has an outside chance, depending on how long TFB plays and how his health progresses. That's it.

    Wilfork is not a Hall of Famer. He is a Hall-of-the-damn-good player, and that in itself is something to be very proud of. What about Casey Hampton? Hell, what about Richard Seymour? Even if you take out the bias against low sack numbers that the voters tend to have, he's got to beat out the other DL with low sack numbers who have stronger cases. Plenty of fine players are not hall of famers, and that's why its the hall of fame.

    If I had to choose someone else I'd guess a rookie (Jamie Collins?), only because while they haven't proven anything yet, unlike the veterans they don't have a track record of proof that they are not hall of famers.
     
  6. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There are currently 33 defensive linemen in the Pro Football Hall of Fame

    Doug Atkins (DE) 1953-1969
    Elvin Bethea (DE) 1968-1983
    Buck Buchanan (DT) 1963-1975
    Curley Culp 1968-1981
    Willie Davis (DE) 1958-1969
    Fred Dean (DE) 1975-1985
    Richard Dent 1983-1997
    Chris Doleman (DE, LB) 1985-1999
    Art Donovan (DT) 1950-1961
    Carl Eller (DE) 1964-1979
    Len Ford (DE) 1948-1958
    Joe Greene (DT) 1969-1981
    Dan Hampton (DT-DE) 1979-1990
    Deacon Jones (DE) 1961-1974
    Henry Jordan (DT) 1957-1969
    Cortez Kennedy (DT) 1990-2000
    Bob Lilly (DT) 1961-1974
    Howie Long (DE) 1981-1993
    Gino Marchetti (DE) 1952-1964, 1966
    Leo Nomellini (DT) 1950-1963
    Merlin Olsen (DT) 1962-1976
    Alan Page (DT) 1967-1981
    John Randle 1990-2003
    Andy Robustelli (DE) 1951-1964
    Warren Sapp 1995-2007
    Lee Roy Selmon (DE) 1976-1984
    Bruce Smith 1985-2003
    Ernie Stautner (DT) 1950-1963
    Arnie Weinmeister (DT) 1948-1953
    Randy White (DT) 1975-1988
    Reggie White (DT-DE) 1985-1998, 2000
    Bill Willis (MG) 1946-1953
    Jack Youngblood (DE) 1971-1984


    It seems to me that the last few years there has been a concerted effort to place more linemen in the Hall, with a feeling that prior to that they were being unjustly passed over in favor of skill position players.

    With five Pro Bowls, who will Wilfork's competition be when the time comes? Perhaps Seymour, Kris Jenkins, Kevin Williams... who else?

    Also consider this: which other Patriots (beside Brady and Belichick) will go to the HoF from this team's run under BB? The voters will want a certain amount of representation, but not too much (remember the backlash from so many Steelers getting in a few years back); does that work for or against Wilfork?
     
  7. FirstAndGoal

    FirstAndGoal Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    There's a kid down the street that looks like a future HOFer. Don't forget to include him. I hear he's going to make it big some day.:rolleyes:
     
  8. patsinthesnow

    patsinthesnow PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    Gronkowski will be 24 at the end of the season with most likely 45 career TDs; that is insane. The problem however is I can't picture Gronk lasting past 30, let alone to 37 years old like Gonzalez. So just like Moss couldn't catch Rice due to his QBs and falling off at age 33, Gronk won't catch Gonzalez in yards/receptions.

    Gronk is amazing though. He averages close to 1 TD per game. If he could just STAY healthy, he would easily beat Moss for #2 TDs all time with 157. Hell, if Gronk could play until 33, he could even break the all time record held by Rice. Sadly, who can see Gronk playing past 30? :(

    Gronk is the best TE to ever play in the NFL, even if he retired tomorrow. Like the above poster said, it's a matter if he plays enough games to make the HOF and be labeled the GOAT.
     
  9. Get it shawtaay

    Get it shawtaay Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    #32 Jersey

    The thing is, if the voters are going to elect players to symbolize the team's run, why would they choose Wilfork? He was only on one of the three Super Bowl winning teams, and on that team he was a rookie and just another player. Wilfork has been 1st team All-Pro only once in his career. Most of the defenses on which he has been the top dog have been bad, and some of them have been dumpster fires. I don't see what argument he would have.

    To me, if any of the Patriots outside of Brady has a case for the HOF, it would be Richard Seymour.
     
  10. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #24 Jersey

    NFL hall:
    Clearly BB and TB are locks.

    Gronk is clearly on track just needs another 5 years or so at this pace and a Ring would help.

    After that I think Vince has to be next on the list. I think another ring would solidify it for him or another chunk of years at the top of his game to make it a really long career as one of the best NT. Dont forget that at one point we considered Seymour a lock until he went to where careers die in Oakland. I still think Sey has a shot and on that point so would Vince.

    Others that have a long way to go but could make it Mayo, Solder, and Chandler. Way too early on Chandler and Solder and possibly too late for Mayo. But lets assume Solder protects Brady's blindside for another 5 years and gets one ring and then protects the next guy for another 5-10 and gets a ring with him too collecting some pro bowls and all pros along the way. Or in Chandlers case a 10+ year career with double digit sacks most years and again a ring or 2. In Mayo's case he has got a few pro bowls and always has 100+ tackles so he could continue to add these up and if he got a ring he could get some consideration but I think he is actually starting to get up there in years and being half way to a long career I dont think he has put enough together yet. I guess you could add Mankins into this list too.

    The key here will be who puts up the long career and getting them a ring or two. None of them except Brady and Vince have any.

    Provided they all play here for a really long time I would put everyone above in the Patriot Hall and Add McCourty and maybe a few others possibly too. plus another 10 retired guys from last decades team it might take 20 years to get em all in and who knows where the bar goes from here.
     
  11. Fencer

    Fencer Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #12 Jersey

    Some thoughts

     
  12. Get it shawtaay

    Get it shawtaay Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    #32 Jersey

    I know that the media is completely capable of gauging offensive line play outside of Pro Bowl and All-Pro selections, but I'd think even the baseball writers would know better than to vote for Logan Mankins.
     
  13. goheels22002

    goheels22002 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    I could see Bill Belichick getting into the NFL Hall of Fame.
     
  14. VrabelJr

    VrabelJr In the Starting Line-Up

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    Chandler Jones has 14 sacks in his career so far. Slow the F down will ya? Getting in as a DE is hard. Guys like Strahan, Deacon Jones, Alan Page and Bruce Smith set the bar really high.

    I love Wilfork but he isn't a HOF either. Wilfork isn't the best DT of his generation, Kevin Williams has had a better career while being on far worse teams.
     
  15. Ivan

    Ivan Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #75 Jersey



    Vince Wilfork absolutely belongs in the NFL Hall of Fame.
     
  16. Get it shawtaay

    Get it shawtaay Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    Belongs by what standard though?

    Do you feel like he is a generationally productive football player, and therefore belongs in the HOF? Or do you feel like he has a strong resume, and therefore belongs in the HOF?

    I love the big guy but I don't see how one would go about arguing for him...
     
  17. SoCal Pmen

    SoCal Pmen 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    #54 Jersey

    Robert Kraft will go into the HOF
     
  18. Ivan

    Ivan Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    He has dominated at his position from the moment he stepped onto the field. He has required double teams his entire career because one player can't handle him. You simply cannot apply stats to the contributions he has made to these Patriot teams. Vince Wilfork has been the most consistently dominant player i have ever watched, you can count his "bad" games on one hand. The Patriots are the best team of this era, and while they don't have an abundance of Hall of Fame players from this decade plus of dominance they do have some, Brady, Law, Harrison, Vinatieri, and Wilfork are the ones who I consider Hall worthy, even though there are others who contributed as much to this franchise but weren't above their peers at that level, and Bruschi is a great example of that, as is Matt Light. (Moss is first ballot but not as a Patriot)(Seymour would have had a shot but going to Oakland hurt his legacy imo)
     
  19. Get it shawtaay

    Get it shawtaay Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    #32 Jersey

    Why not Seymour?

    He was arguably the second most valuable player (after Tom) on 3 Super Bowl winning teams. He anchored the defense of a team that won 3 super bowls, on a team that was known for its defense. When a team is as good as those Patriots teams are they'll get a representative - who better than Seymour, who was the key to Belichick's 30 front schemes because of his versatility?

    He pretty much defined the 5-tech defensive end position, and for that he was chosen to the 2000s all-decade team. 3 1st team All-Pro nods (to Wilfork's 1), 57.5 sacks (to Wilfork's 16.0). And he played out of even alignments on many snaps, often doing the exact same "unglamorous" task that Wilfork has done of tying up blockers.

    The thing is, when players with "unquantifiable roles" are considered, the performance of their unit is given weight to make up for it. Seymour didn't get that many sacks because he was 2-gapping, but the defense was so successful that you could absolve him for it. Wilfork? In the years he has been given all-pro consideration the Patriots defense has been 28th, 29th, 21st, 7th, and 19th in YPA. Against the run? 6th, 24th, 16th, 23rd, and 26th in YPC. So he doesn't have team success or statistical success to lean on here.

    And that's before getting to players from other teams who have a case - I have a hard time seeing Wilfork in before Kevin Williams or La'Roi Glover for example.
     
  20. Gronk

    Gronk On the Roster

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    I will preface this by saying that in these types of arguments, where "production" is not as easily quantifiable, perception becomes more important.

    So for the "why not Seymour" argument, the perception will be that he wasted the last half of his career dumpster-diving for cash and/or respect on a terrible team, and one that he didn't make much of an impact on in terms of wins. It invalidates almost all of the credit we might want to give him for his early career arc in NE, because the "unquantifiable" becomes forgotten or irrelevant when the equation of "unquantifiable = wins" no longer balances.

    Do I think Seymour is, theoretically, a HoF quality player? Absolutely. I also think it matters where you play, especially for linemen. That's not "fair", I suppose, but that's what it is.

    As an example, to use someone who's not a lineman, Mike Singletary wouldn't be in the HoF if he left the Bears in 1987 to go play in Seattle or Tampa. He just wouldn't. He'd still be the same guy, same leader, same player - it just alters the perception. Singletary was a GREAT player for a few years, very good for the rest of them, and in the end basically played on a consistently competitive team over a little more than a decade and was an integral part of one of the best teams ever. If Richard Seymour were still a Patriot, even if you held all the overall NE defense numbers at status quo over the past 5 years, there wouldn't be a single person here who would say he shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame.

    I don't know what I'm saying anymore...hell, put him in just because of the time he punched Roethlisberger in the face.
     

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