Frontline Report on Football and CTE injuries

[Fencer]

Cade McCown and others are surprising people by failing concussion protocols. This tells me that the intuitions of those who are now surprised were wrong, and they were wrong in the direction of thinking guys weren't/were less concussed than was actually the case.

 

[Fencer]

That's the problem WE DO NOT KNOW - Over the years millions of kids have played HS football. It it were as dangerous an experience as you imply, wouldn't CTE have become a major national health hazard by now.

If former high school football players were smarter adults, the country might be a better place.

For example, Roger Goodell played high school football.

George W Bush, by the way, was a serious rugby player.

 

[The Gr8est]

It's even better to see Roger squirm while he's saying it

Maybe Goodell will fine Madden and suspend him from retirement.

Did we also start to get a glimpse of Goodell's red face that the players noted during the last CBA meetings?

 

[mosey threetupu]

It's speaks volumes that the NFL donated $1 million to this study and will have spent many multiples of that on Framegate when all is said and done.

 

[BradyFTW!]

That's the problem WE DO NOT KNOW - Over the years millions of kids have played HS football. It it were as dangerous an experience as you imply, wouldn't CTE have become a major national health hazard by now. The fact is we DO know that the major cause of head trauma among teens,. isn't football, ii's car crashes. So I have to ask, where is the outrage against teens in cars? How many parents are rallying to keep their kids out of cars and out of cars with teen driving? There is none because all that outrage been focused on football,even though there is no actual information to justify it.

Possible CTE issues that seem to plague former NFL players who have played football over 20 years most against much bigger and faster competition and far greater collisions just don't apply to kids playing 4 years playing HS.....and the millions who played the games without CTE is proof. Sure it is anecdotal, but its hard to deny.

Now I'm not saying that football isn't a contact sport where injuries are possible. Of course it is, but have we become SO weak that we demand a risk free existence? How long will we remain a great culture when the only time we deal with risk is when we watch someone else take one on TV????

Bottom line, I believe that the risks of playing HS football don't come close to the potential rewards, both long term and short./ My major complaint with the Frontline report and the comments about it, is that they never make the distinction between the risks of play HS football and playing long term in the NFL. It bothers me because the LACK of that distinction will keep a lot of kids from playing a great game.that has been a valuable experience for many people

I think the argument being made here is that it *is* a major national health crisis. We don't know exactly how widespread it is because the only way to conclusively detect it is to dissect someone's brain after they die, and that's not done too often. Maybe the middle ground that we can all agree on is that more research needs to be done so that it can be determined exactly how big of an issue this is.

And until that research is done, I wouldn't fault any parent for erring on the side of caution and keeping their kid from playing football. You'll get no disagreement from me that football is a valuable teaching tool for kids, but OTOH so are basketball, soccer, and other sports where you aren't potentially putting your kid in the line of fire for debilitating brain disease.

 

[BTTA]

Brain trauma is a national health crisis, and it isn't just football. Heading the ball in soccer will be against the rules for youth in a few years. And hockey will evolve to become safer. Etc.

We have a burgeoning epidemic of dementia and while there are multiple possible explanations for it, why take a chance?

My son got wonderful teamwork and discipline growth from playing basketball and volleyball. In no case did any of his enjoyment, satisfaction, or learning come from devastating an opposing player with a violent action, or creating humiliation. That aspect of football is even more undiscussable than head trauma.

 

[PatsBoy12]

I hope Wes Welker has seen this.

 

[The Gr8est]

The NFL better release another report bashing the Patriots to distract people from this.

Not saying there is any relationship, just noting the affiliations.

The first person the NFL* used when forming a group debunking the link to CTFE and the NFL* was a trainer from the Rats. The Frontline documentary also used a team doctor from the Colts to support the NFL's side, while a doctor from BU and a Steelers team doctor were on the side opposing the NFL*.

 

[patfanken]

I think the argument being made here is that it *is* a major national health crisis. We don't know exactly how widespread it is because the only way to conclusively detect it is to dissect someone's brain after they die, and that's not done too often. Maybe the middle ground that we can all agree on is that more research needs to be done so that it can be determined exactly how big of an issue this is.

And until that research is done, I wouldn't fault any parent for erring on the side of caution and keeping their kid from playing football. You'll get no disagreement from me that football is a valuable teaching tool for kids, but OTOH so are basketball, soccer, and other sports where you aren't potentially putting your kid in the line of fire for debilitating brain disease.

But what you are basically saying is that 60% of all people who played HS football has CTE :eek" Now Fencer DOES make a strong case in Goodell and Bush, but every thing in life involves risk. Soccer has a larger incidence of concussions than football IIRC, due to headers and incidental head contact. Should kids stop playing that too. Think about all the collisions in LaCrosse....... AND they give you a stick and permission to use it. Hockey is self explanatory. So what would you have us play? Should we all go the skateboard park because we know nothing can go wrong there.

Like I said, I'm not blind to the risks, but I recognize that the rewards are much great than that PERCEIVED risk. In the end what I'm most distressed about is the lack of distinction being made between the risks of the NFL game and the HS game of football.

BTW- I played football, basketball, baseball, wrestling and track in HS. football, intramural hockey, and Lacrosse in college I coached football, basketball and Lacrosse. So I had a broad and varied experience in team sports for most of my adult life, and NOTHING was more impactful, both as a player and coach, than football. And it worries me that because of some unreasonable fears brought on by a lack of distinction, the game will die....and die soon..

 

[venecol]

Wouldn't MMA be the worst sports for concussions?

 

[Observer]

Here is MY problem with the CTE report and your comments. I would accept that in this era when players are so extraordinarily big and fast that the kinds of collisions you'd expect to see, could very well cause CTE, especially for players who play over several years and have lots of these extreme collisions. I think an important question to ask about these brains would be, how many years did they play NFL ball?

Here is my problem with your comments. You used these facts out of context to influence your actions with your son, and I believe robbed him of a very valuable experience. I wonder if they took the brains of men who just played HS AND college football, what the percentage of CTE you'd find. You'd expect that % to be much lower. What about 80 guys who JUST played in HS, You'd think the % would be much lower than that.

No question, the kind of collisions you are exposed to in the NFL ARE a risk. But a risk you are getting very well paid for. Much more in fact than other occupations that carry a similar health risk. But I cry out for the risk rewards ratio of the HS game. Given the relative size and speed differences, HS football doesn't pose nearly the risk that would be worth NOT getting the valuable experience and life lessons the game of football can offer. If you played HS ball, you should know how valuable they were,

I coached high level HS ball for close to 20 years as an assistant and HC. I was also a great teacher as well. But I never could teach the kind of life lessons that live with you forever in the class room that I could on the field. It's the lesson of the value of teamwork. It's the lesson of overcoming adversity. It's the lesson that the sum is always greater than the individual parts. It's the lesson of how to overcome fear, pain, and other people's expectations. It's the lesson of perseverance. It's the lesson of growing and getting better, both physically and emotionally. Its the lesson of getting knocked down and and getting up again Not only that, I got to be with most of those kids 3 or 4 years, not just the one you get as a classroom teacher.

On my best days as a classroom teacher I could impart some information (History) I could get a few to recognize what has happened in the past has a direct impact on the present and future. I could help improve and encourage reading and memorization skills. I could help teach them HOW to learn, and hopefully inspire them to want to know more.....about anything. And do it all without the internet and Google. But that is hard to do in just 40 minutes a day (at best) and less than 10 months to do it.

As a coach I would get them for close to 3 hours a day, for almost 4 months and created a connection that lasted the rest of the year regardless of what other sports or activities they participated in. You had a direct influence on these kids all year round. That's why if a football player screwed up somehow, even if was April, YOU were the one the administration or other teachers would come looking for to straighten it out.

Well, Dr Pain, I've gone one of my long winded rants. Sorry about that., The bottom line is I would suggest that you put that Frontline report in context. I would suggest that you revisit your fears of letting your son play, and put them into the context of the HS arena vs the NFL arena where the risk of CTE are MUCH much higher. Keep this in mind. Very soon you are going to give your son the keys to the car, where he is in MUCH greater risk of head injury than he ever is going to be on the football field. If you were to be completely consistent, you'd never let him drive, or even get into a care with another teen driver, if you are going to discourage him from playing even indirectly. n JMHO

....and I'm done.

I think we all agree that there are things to learn from playing football. But football is not the only way to learn those things, it might not even be a good way given the potential risks.

 

[Tunescribe]

I think medical treatment -- pharmaceuticals, etc. -- will become the ultimate answer to mitigating CTE. Brady already has how own holistic regimen going. In other words, in a sport like football not a whole lot more can be done to prevent it occurring in those susceptible. The keys will be developing methods of early diagnosis and effective treatment.

 

[h0c2000]

100% of current NFL commissioners show symptoms of CTE. For example,the symptoms of CTE include memory loss, confusion, impaired judgment, impulse control problems, aggression...

 

[FCB02062]

Haven't watched this report but plan on doing so. CTE sounds awful & it's an indictment of the NFL looking the other way & treating it's players like cattle.
But of course, should the patriots lose today, the NFL media lackeys will be writing & talking about the burgeoning buffalo dynasty, the genus of Rex Ryan and the downfall of the patriots.

 

[PatsBoy12]

Connolly made the right choice. I guess it would potentially take years to know if it was too late or not, though.

 

[lurker1965]

Sorry for the thread Jack and this will bee long. I think there is an obvious flaw in my thinking, but I can't see it.

It isn't going back to old equipment bad idea. (BTW, leather helmets will lead too cracked skulls, No face mask will decrease good tackling where you can see your opponent as players turn their heads to avoid broken noses.)

I want to change 1 rule back. Not all of them. I do not want the old three steps to the QB and bring back head shots, etc.

The 1978 rule that keeps getting re-emphasized contributes to concussions. The old way of pass defense was if the CB could hit the WR and throw off his timing so the QB couldn't count on the WR being open at the right time. Now it is the CB tries to get a hand in and mess up the catch and failing hat the safety after the ball contacts the receiver blasts him so hard he drops it.

Yes, Changing back (or revisiting the rules side effects - how ever you term it) isn't a 100% fix, but 20-30% is nothing to sneeze at.

Yes, it would do nothing for linemen, etc., but isn't the pre-1978 way better for concussions? What am I missing?

 

[Tony2046]

That's the problem WE DO NOT KNOW - Over the years millions of kids have played HS football. It it were as dangerous an experience as you imply, wouldn't CTE have become a major national health hazard by now. The fact is we DO know that the major cause of head trauma among teens,. isn't football, ii's car crashes. So I have to ask, where is the outrage against teens in cars? How many parents are rallying to keep their kids out of cars and out of cars with teen driving? There is none because all that outrage been focused on football,even though there is no actual information to justify it.

Possible CTE issues that seem to plague former NFL players who have played football over 20 years most against much bigger and faster competition and far greater collisions just don't apply to kids playing 4 years playing HS.....and the millions who played the games without CTE is proof. Sure it is anecdotal, but its hard to deny.

Now I'm not saying that football isn't a contact sport where injuries are possible. Of course it is, but have we become SO weak that we demand a risk free existence? How long will we remain a great culture when the only time we deal with risk is when we watch someone else take one on TV????

Bottom line, I believe that the risks of playing HS football don't come close to the potential rewards, both long term and short./ My major complaint with the Frontline report and the comments about it, is that they never make the distinction between the risks of play HS football and playing long term in the NFL. It bothers me because the LACK of that distinction will keep a lot of kids from playing a great game.that has been a valuable experience for many people

I will say as a parent of a young football loving kid I cannot rule out him playing football when he is older but I am concerned and I simply do not trust the NFL. Right now I allow him to play flag football and other non contact sports.

Anyways, I liked your post because you made excellent counter points that are worth considering.

 

[patfanken]

I will say as a parent of a young football loving kid I cannot rule out him playing football when he is older but I am concerned and I simply do not trust the NFL. Right now I allow him to play flag football and other non contact sports.

Anyways, I liked your post because you made excellent counter points that are worth considering.

Don't trust NFL. Trust yourself. Keep him playing tag football. He will learn plenty of the skills he will need at the next lever (but not all). Keep him away from full contact until he is at least in the 7th grade, and if you keep him away from it until the 9th grade that would be fine too.

When it comes time for him to put on a helmet, be comfortable to go to the coaches (visit a practice or 2, but don't be overbearing.. Make sure that he is teaching the kids to keep their head's up, and that ANY helmet contact should ONLY be made with the face mask. That way you will be sure that the head will be in the best position to absorb any blow. But even more important than teaching the correct technique, is to make sure the coach is committed to not tolerating it when the kids DO lower their heads when they make contact.. Especially when they first start, it is natural fo kids to duck their heads. The fastest thing a coach can do to cure it is to REFUSE to tolerate it..

BTW- here is an easy drill you can use with your kid now that will prove to him why good head position is important, especially if he wants to be good as well as safe.

Take him to the living room and get him into a good "hitting" position.. That's with feet shoulder width apart and either parallel or slightly off set, and HEAD UP, neck strong. Then put your hand on the side of his head and and try and push him to the side. Of course you will move him, esspecially if he is as young as you imply., but it won't be easy. You will be able to feel the resistance and so will he..

Then have him assume the same position BUT have is head low (bow his head). Then you will be able to move him aside with a finger. You will feel the a marked difference, but more importantly, so will he.

Another quick lesson you can teach him is to have him get int that "good hitting position" and he will see agiin that a good stable base will make him hard to move. Then have him stand up straight with his fee closer together, and he will see that he's much more easier to move. All athletic endeavors begin with being in a good athletic position..

Let me know if you try it and how it works out,

 

[BTTA]

Don't trust NFL. Trust yourself. Keep him playing tag football. He will learn plenty of the skills he will need at the next lever (but not all). Keep him away from full contact until he is at least in the 7th grade, and if you keep him away from it until the 9th grade that would be fine too.

When it comes time for him to put on a helmet, be comfortable to go to the coaches (visit a practice or 2, but don't be overbearing.. Make sure that he is teaching the kids to keep their head's up, and that ANY helmet contact should ONLY be made with the face mask. That way you will be sure that the head will be in the best position to absorb any blow. But even more important than teaching the correct technique, is to make sure the coach is committed to not tolerating it when the kids DO lower their heads when they make contact.. Especially when they first start, it is natural fo kids to duck their heads. The fastest thing a coach can do to cure it is to REFUSE to tolerate it..

BTW- here is an easy drill you can use with your kid now that will prove to him why good head position is important, especially if he wants to be good as well as safe.

Take him to the living room and get him into a good "hitting" position.. That's with feet shoulder width apart and either parallel or slightly off set, and HEAD UP, neck strong. Then put your hand on the side of his head and and try and push him to the side. Of course you will move him, esspecially if he is as young as you imply., but it won't be easy. You will be able to feel the resistance and so will he..

Then have him assume the same position BUT have is head low (bow his head). Then you will be able to move him aside with a finger. You will feel the a marked difference, but more importantly, so will he.

Another quick lesson you can teach him is to have him get int that "good hitting position" and he will see agiin that a good stable base will make him hard to move. Then have him stand up straight with his fee closer together, and he will see that he's much more easier to move. All athletic endeavors begin with being in a good athletic position..

Let me know if you try it and how it works out,

This is fine, but I think missing the bigger point. The dominant culture in football is that of brutality. Your son can do everything right and still suffer a devastating, legal hit from an opposing player that does long term physical and psychological damage (most of which won't be noticed until later, if at all.) That opposing player will be congratulated and revered for doing this to your son, and his odds of getting paid by colleges to play for them will go up significantly if he achieves a reputation as a "big hitter."

The coaches who have the most success in getting their young men to play with the most brutality will be celebrated and paid more. Both these players and coaches will be complimented on internet message boards.

That's the culture you are encouraging your son to join. Yes, there are exceptional coaches who teach otherwise, but they are rare and don't rise above high school because their values aren't generally embraced by the economics of the sport.

 

[Marinlik]

I just watched the show, and it's chilling to watch. I actually had plans to start playing again, but I decided to actually watch this whole documentary before doing it, and not just read about it as I have before. After seeing this I decided not to start playing again. I really like to play, I love the team aspect and all of that. But it's simply not worth it with the risks that it presents. I don't see the numbers of tested cases, and how many of those that have CTE as saying that 90 or so % of football players have CTE. Just that there is a very real risk of getting it. And as much fun as it is to play, it's not worth any added risk of getting CTE, as the effects looked horrifying.

Hearing about CTE problems makes stuff like Hoyers memory loss extra scary. How will he be when he's 50? And still the coach says that he's "day to day". Is that really the way to handle problems like this?

What's most disgusting about all of this is seeing the NFL lie. I think it's fair to say that the NFL has put lives at risk, lives of people that will never make it to the NFL. Simply because the NFL time and again tried to systematically remove anything or anyone that pointed to the NFL causing concussions, and those concussions leading to CTE. That then leads to people not being able to take fully educated decisions about playing. If you want to play, knowing the risks, then go ahead. But it's awful that people have not been able to make that decision in an educated way, because the NFL has hidden the facts.