Front Seven Weak Link

[The_Riddler]

What hurt the pass rush this year, I believe, was the conservative defensive play calling by Pees. His lack of creative blitzes, something we've always seen here over the last 8 years (Hello RAC?) was a major factor.

We don't have the personnel to rush a base-4 and create pressure. This is a run-stuffing D-Line that needs that edge rusher (which we obviously lacked with Vrabel's play taking a step back). Without that edge rusher, it was up to Pees to get creative with ILB and safety blitzes which he finally realized in the Seattle game, when for the first time he sent Meriweather during a critical play that won the game on the ball strip.

My frustration was why did he wait this long to decide to start to bring pressure? Our secondary was getting chewed up with these 3rd and longs because we never brought the heat. The Favre (3rd and playoff changing - 15) was the classic "Bring the house" play if there ever was one. We didn't and it cost us alot, ultimately a PO birth, because had Matt Cassel got his hands on the football in OT, it was game over.

Going forward, if we can't bring in a Suggs / Peppers, or trade up for stud PR-OLB, I'm not sure what our options are aside from Pees, like I said, designing some disguised corner, interior and/or safety blitzes. This will make the Wilhites and Wheatleys looks that much better in 09.

 

[JR4]

I see the problem with the front seven as this:

.....

What we lack is a pass rushing difference makers that opposing teams HAVE to account for on each and every play. They are rare but not impossible to find.

I see many wanting that special player that can get to the QB.
BB certainly could have targeted such a player but look what he has
done instead. He has a solid front seven that can make plays and they they have decent depth.
No they don't have that Merriman type player but they have depth.

What happens to most teams defense production when their high priced
speed rusher goes down with an injury? Ask Chargers or Colts.
With BB, his team can take a big hit but not have a dramatic drop in production.
There are usually two sides to most situations.
The BB way ... bring in some stiff competition for what he now has and
look for improvement. I really believe the Front seven will be better next year.
It just may as dramatic as some would like but BB wont break the bank
to do it.

 

[Leave No Doubt]

Yes, one solution for the front seven is an all-pro pass rusher. Another option is for the defense to not know where anyone is coming from, RAC's defensive scheming of 2003 and 2004. Add occasional corner or safety run support and blitzes and there is really powerful defense.

Another option is to start with all-pro shutdown corner plus a really good corner on the other side (like Law and O-T-I-S) plus a harda$$ strong safety.

Bingo. And I think this year our defensive rookies will be able to handle more scheming with 08 already having under their belts.

My thoughts on CB/Safety are in another thread but reflect exactly what you said-we need a hitter who's also smart and can read the field. A nasty secondary can really help an imperfect front 7, they can change the game around if they're smart and unafraid. Watching the Ravens made me ill.

 

[Ring 6]

EXCELLENT POST. I am done blaming the players. I have moved on to looking at the coaching. There are some things about our defensive scheme that bother me. Where is the pass rush? We used to dominate at the line of scrimmage. Now, our boys get pushed around at times, especially when we play elite teams. Why so much cushion by our DBs in the secondary? Why not be more aggressive back there? I am sick and tired of seeing mediocre QBs look like the second coming of Montanna for a day against our front seven, and every WR in the league look like the second coming of Jerry Rice against our secondary. The last drive of that miserable Super Bowl is a prime example. I can't even remember the name of the guy who caught that pass on his helmet. Finally, what is up with the tackling? Do our coaches not teach this anymore? Is it laziness? There has been no Monty Beisel or Duane Starks to blame the lack of tackling on over the last two years. It looks like our guys are always a step too slow, and I'm not buying the age factor. Our young guys have the same problem...remember 3rd and 16? That was the most FRUSTRATING 3rd down conversion given up by our defense in 2008. It still bothers me. :disagreement:
Yes we need some upgrades in personnel, but we need an upgrade in scheme and fundamentals too. Everytime I watch the Ravens and Steelers defense play, I GRUDGINGLY have to admit that our defense is not Championship Caliber.

So what you are saying is our players are great and our scheme and system that won 3 SBs and more games in the decade than any other system. (In fact I think the BB system is on track to win more games in the 00 decade than any team, system or coach ever won in a decade).
But, maybe your right. First, maybe there is a reason to assign blame, and if so, why not assign it to the system, coaching and management that is as close as anyone has ever been to perfect because they are not perfect.

 

[RayClay]

Yes, one solution for the front seven is an all-pro pass rusher. Another option is for the defense to not know where anyone is coming from, RAC's defensive scheming of 2003 and 2004. Add occasional corner or safety run support and blitzes and there is really powerful defense.

Well, we know Bruschi isn't coming up the middle and Mayo tallied zero sacks. And we don't know if or when we'll get a reliable OLB rusher again, so I'd say we have the defense fooled on that count.

Leading in sacks is Seymour with eight, in addition to his job which is to tie up two linemen.

I'd say it's past time for a dominant pass rusher and we should continue the one year old project of restocking the position until we have four linebackers with some experience in the system and a little tread left on the tires and a decent backup or two.

 

[RayClay]

Let's remember that before this year we couldn't draft a linebacker because it took years to master our system so we needed veteran free agents.

Also we had to draft college defensive ends and convert them because an actual linebacker couldn't be used in our system.

So, since we just played an actual linebacker almost every snap as a rookie, we either had a cataclysmic change in philosophy, or we realized that our plan "A" to restock the position just wasn't working, so we needed to get young somehow.

Either way, Mayo is a high draft pick, not a vet or undrafted free agent and we have still not converted a DE or undrafted free agent into a reliable starter in the Belichick era.

It would be great if Woods or Guyton changed that, but all our successful starters prior to Mayo have been vet pickups or Parcells draft picks. Remember TBC was ready and had the experience to take the job easily as much as Woods or Guyton and when push comes to shove he was wishful thinking, overrated due to no real competition.

 

[Ring 6]

I see many wanting that special player that can get to the QB.
BB certainly could have targeted such a player but look what he has
done instead. He has a solid front seven that can make plays and they they have decent depth.
No they don't have that Merriman type player but they have depth.

What happens to most teams defense production when their high priced
speed rusher goes down with an injury? Ask Chargers or Colts.
With BB, his team can take a big hit but not have a dramatic drop in production.
There are usually two sides to most situations.
The BB way ... bring in some stiff competition for what he now has and
look for improvement. I really believe the Front seven will be better next year.
It just may as dramatic as some would like but BB wont break the bank
to do it.

Its funny. I think its safe to say that we have as or more rewarded as fans by BB running this franchise as any fan base in NFL with only a few exceptions that could even be considered.
Yet, every arm chair GM wants to critique BB and give all of the reasons he knows better and could not only judge BB but improve on his results.

Here's the deal. Everything you think you want has a consequence.
BBs OVERRIDING philosophy is to be CONSERVATIVE.

I'm sure that if BB decided that sacks were the only thing that mattered, he could devise a scheme that would break the all time sack record. Fortunately for us, BB realizes that the only record worth breaking is the all time WINS record.

 

[RayClay]

Its funny. I think its safe to say that we have as or more rewarded as fans by BB running this franchise as any fan base in NFL with only a few exceptions that could even be considered.
Yet, every arm chair GM wants to critique BB and give all of the reasons he knows better and could not only judge BB but improve on his results.

Here's the deal. Everything you think you want has a consequence.
BBs OVERRIDING philosophy is to be CONSERVATIVE.

I'm sure that if BB decided that sacks were the only thing that mattered, he could devise a scheme that would break the all time sack record. Fortunately for us, BB realizes that the only record worth breaking is the all time WINS record.

He must have hated coaching Taylor and McGinest.

 

[Mack Herron]

He must have hated coaching Taylor and McGinest.

No disagreement here. If Taylor or McGinest were available, he would jump on them. But there are just not too many of those.

 

[SeymourTrophies]

In fairness, the Pats were second in the league in sacks in 2007 with 47 with Vrabel being the first Patriot since McGinest in the 90s to have a double digit sack total. They were 5th in 2006 with 44. Let's not exggerate the lack of pass rush.

Yes, but look at he games where Vrabel had big sacks. We were up by 20, and the team was trying to pass themselves back into the game. Didn't he strip sack Jason Campbell two or three times in the game we won 52-7? Vrabel had more time to get there last season. We sure as heck weren't getting the necessary pressure in the close games. I think the defense isn't as bad as people can make it out to be, but it isn't winning games for us when we need it to.

I've got to wonder how much of it is the play calling because we had moments as a defense where we were quite solid. The same players were on the field, but the attitude was a more confident and aggressive one. Maybe a change at the DC position would cure this ailment, or at least a kick in the pants of Dean Pees.

 

[RayClay]

No disagreement here. If Taylor or McGinest were available, he would jump on them. But there are just not too many of those.

Granted. I do think if they can nab a similar player, or just create more competition, an adequate strong rusher might emerge.

Obviously a player of the caliber of those two might not develop even if we had a top five pick. A Lamar Woodley might have done it or maybe Crable will.

Either way, I think they need to continue stocking the LB position and creating a higher level of competition. Crossing your fingers and hoping every UDFA is a keeper won't cut it IMO.

I hope AD has another 4-5 productive years and that Vrabel is healthy and frisky for a while. However, I think we need to consider the possibility that we are turning over the whole LB corps in the next few years and that Mayo is just the first piece. I think both things are possible.

I don't second guess drafts, by the way. Woodley is an example of how Pittsburgh consistently targets that position. You can't always be a genius, but smarts and concentrated work assure Pittsburgh always has superior linebackers.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Blitz happy teams win once in a blue moon. They look awesome against the weak sisters of the league and early in the season. They fade as the blitzes get on film and opponennts figure how to handle them. Blitz happy team get burned when they play the Iron of the league, since by definition the Iron are good at everthing they do. That is a recipe to get to and then fail in the Playoffs. No Thank You. I like Belichick's approach better.

Yet fans never change. I can remember the exact opposite being propounded when Pete Carrol and Sidwell ran a blitz oriented Defense, and got burned.

 

[TripleOption]

This is going to be unpopular, but right now Mayo and Guyton are pretty good and will be excellent.. but both seemed to have difficulty in pass coverage, particularly against some of the TE's going over the middle.

Mayo will be an all pro, Guyton will be very good.. but right now there is a terrific learning curve going on.

Do not see Colvin here next year.. he often looked lost out there.

Colvin was coming off a layoff; if he can get back to where he was just before the injury he was outstanding. If not, add Terrell Suggs and voila, instant awesome.

I know he's not available but I can dream.

 

[NE_PATS_FAN_54]

pats need to start thinking DL in this years draft. It's very realistic to think that either wilfork or seymour will be gone after next year.

 

[jczxohn1]

After skimming through the posts in this thread, I had a couple of thoughts:
1. mg's analysis of our front 7 is correct. We had better be patient with our youngsters and hope they are brought along quickly, because they are what we've got. There are too many holes in the secondary to be re-inventing the LB's again. The Chicken Little cries about the lack of sacks and pressure have got to stop. No one seems to recall the # of IR's from the pass-rush position we suffered. Adalius, Pierre, Crable, (altho an unproven, but that was why he was drafted), not to mention the best blitzer the Pats have ever had, Rodney, WTF, what do you expect?

2. Getting back to Rodney-- people are fussing about TE's over the middle. The reason why we haven't been able to cover them is it's been Rodney's job since he's been here. He's training to come back, hopefully to teach someone how to do it, because the big hole in the middle was once filled by him. No one else has been able to fill those shoes with the 6th sense of knowing what was about to happen before it did.

3. You look at the lack of pressure by the front 7, the coverage problems of the secondary, stick a healthy, younger Rodney back in there and they all go away. somebody has to step up and take that role. And whoever it is, is already here.

 

[mgteich]

Yes, if we want a linebacker, we should draft a linebacker. However, the open question is whether there are OLB's who fit our system available. As you point out, even top 10 pick awesome Mayo is being criticized for not having any sacks. He also had problems in coverage. If there is a great LB who can play OLB for us, by all means we should draft him and move either Vrabel or Thomas inside.

You indicate that drafting DE's as linebackers doesn't work. It used to (McGinist and Bruschi). You criticized Banta-Cain and Woods. I understand that thye are not top talent. I would point out that Banta-Cain was signed as a starter for another team, as will likely happen to Woods in 2009 or 2010. Do you believe that there are OLB's to be drafted that can step in as Mayo did. OR, should we be looking to draft another Mayo, another ILB. Finally, perhaps a a top 10 pick gets us top 10 talent, and that is what is needed at OLB and at corner to get a top starter.

Let's remember that before this year we couldn't draft a linebacker because it took years to master our system so we needed veteran free agents.

Also we had to draft college defensive ends and convert them because an actual linebacker couldn't be used in our system.

So, since we just played an actual linebacker almost every snap as a rookie, we either had a cataclysmic change in philosophy, or we realized that our plan "A" to restock the position just wasn't working, so we needed to get young somehow.

Either way, Mayo is a high draft pick, not a vet or undrafted free agent and we have still not converted a DE or undrafted free agent into a reliable starter in the Belichick era.

It would be great if Woods or Guyton changed that, but all our successful starters prior to Mayo have been vet pickups or Parcells draft picks. Remember TBC was ready and had the experience to take the job easily as much as Woods or Guyton and when push comes to shove he was wishful thinking, overrated due to no real competition.

 

[RayClay]

We had better be patient with our youngsters and hope they are brought along quickly

Hmmm so we're not allowed to patiently and quickly acquire some talent at that position? Why?

 

[RayClay]

Yes, if we want a linebacker, we should draft a linebacker. However, the open question is whether there are OLB's who fit our system available. As you point out, even top 10 pick awesome Mayo is being criticized for not having any sacks. He also had problems in coverage. If there is a great LB who can play OLB for us, by all means we should draft him and move either Vrabel or Thomas inside.

You indicate that drafting DE's as linebackers doesn't work. It used to (McGinist and Bruschi). You criticized Banta-Cain and Woods. I understand that thye are not top talent. I would point out that Banta-Cain was signed as a starter for another team, as will likely happen to Woods in 2009 or 2010. Do you believe that there are OLB's to be drafted that can step in as Mayo did. OR, should we be looking to draft another Mayo, another ILB. Finally, perhaps a a top 10 pick gets us top 10 talent, and that is what is needed at OLB and at corner to get a top starter.

I agree we are not in an ideal situation. We should have been acquiring 3-4 De's and other linebackers 3-4 years ago, young vet free agents or quality picks. We need to explore all avenues to acquire the type of players we need. Obviously we have a cap and value DL with big contracts.

Since we can't travel into the past, I think we need to make up for lost time. I think we really got a good one in Mayo. Hopefully he has the character to keep learning and maybe correct bad habits, he might have acquired from being rushed into the lineup.

BB is an innovator in many ways. He's also smart enough to copy others who have been successful. Parcells Giants and Patriots and the Pittsburgh steelers have put a lot of work into acquiring and developing linebackers and it shows. Quite frankly, Belichicks corps linebackers have largely come from those draftees.

McGinest, Bruschi, Vrabel, Johnson.

Not a free agent among them. They didn't just appear, they'll all be gone before long and we haven't replaced them.

BTW The organizations that developed our linebackers also developed a ton of stars at the position, too numerous to mention.

 

[RayClay]

To be fair, I think BB thought he could pick up a DE convert like Vrabes every couple years and Colvin's injuries set us back. Also DE OLB tweeners used to be cheap because most teams played 4-3.

A strategy that worked for a couple years has not provided enough talent due to more teams looking for 3-4 players.

Different situation requires a different strategy. Obviously, last year's drafting was unprecedented for the Patriots under Belichick. We'll see if it was an aberration, I don't think so. Obviously, an affordable appropriate free agent would be snapped up if available.

 

[Nunchucks]

Blitz happy teams win once in a blue moon. They look awesome against the weak sisters of the league and early in the season. They fade as the blitzes get on film and opponennts figure how to handle them. Blitz happy team get burned when they play the Iron of the league, since by definition the Iron are good at everthing they do. That is a recipe to get to and then fail in the Playoffs. No Thank You. I like Belichick's approach better.

Yet fans never change. I can remember the exact opposite being propounded when Pete Carrol and Sidwell ran a blitz oriented Defense, and got burned.

yeah, the steelers and Eagles fade year after year