From the Indy Message Board

[Displaced - Fan]

They've gone through INJURIES ... did he say?

No kidding, IMHO last year we where devastated by injuries more than any team in the league. Had one of the most difficult schedules of any team and STILL made the playoffs.

All the media talks about are the players we've lost, yet we have gained far more in returning healthy players. I truly believe we are a better team (if we can stay healthy).

 

[Hok]

Hate to play Devil's Advocate, but why wouldn't Colts fans be excited ?

They lost more than half their offense. Edge is a 1500 yard back, AND he makes the whole passing game work because team's so feared the threat of him running on the playaction.

GONE is the Colts' effective running game, and and GONE is their ability to scare anyone with the stretch playaction that they run every other play.

 

[Patriotic Fervor]

All these comments are true, but referencing the analogy to Elway (who always knew the importance of the game, and never faltered in taking the team on his shoulders when he had to), did he ever throw his offensive line under the bus after a loss, let alone a playoff loss?

I didn't think so, either.

Manning is not in that class. He is technically superb, but that is apparently where it ends.

Too bad for him, and too bad for the Colts' fan base.

 

[TruthSeeker]

They lost more than half their offense. Edge is a 1500 yard back, AND he makes the whole passing game work because team's so feared the threat of him running on the playaction.

GONE is the Colts' effective running game, and and GONE is their ability to scare anyone with the stretch playaction that they run every other play.

Once again, I hate to play Devil's Advocate, but who say's that they won't have a decent to good running game (by commitee). Hell, Antowain Smith ran for 1200 yards in our first SB season.

As far as comparing Manning to Elway, I must take my comment back. Elway truly was a football god, and I agree, he took those teams on his back and at least go them there, Manning has had all the advantages Elway never had, and has choked. Also, I agree, Elway was class all the way, never blaming his teamates. I remember the 49er's blowing the Broncs out in a SB, and one of the 49er defensive players consoling Elway and telling him he'll be a champion some day......very classy player. I always rooted for Elway in the SB's (except vs the Giants), and was happy for him when he won it, whereas I'd be nonplussed if Manning wins it.

 

[patfanken]

Now I hate the Colts. I hate their front office & their over rated, cry baby GM. I hate the fact they get more respect from the media, dispite never winning ANYTHING. And while it makes it more when Payton give us his whinney face at the end of ANOTHER Losing effort in the Playoffs; I still respect him as a top notch QB.

Don't forget that at the end of the Steeler game he had to make 2 key drives in the fourth quarter to give them a chance at the end of the game. It was not his fault that "the liguored up kicker" missed the FG at the end. Manning DID get them into position....at the end of a key playoff game....with almost no time on the clock.

So while he has had every break in the book (top notch receivers, at great RB, a very good OL, very few key injuries, an easy place to play home games, a soft division, etc, He IS a very good QB, and the Colts, even without Edge, will be very good this season.

BTW- if there IS one guy I'd like to get from the Colts, it would be their trainer. For one reason or another, the Colts have been as healthy over the course of the season, as any team in the league, in fact I can't think of a team in the league who have had fewer injuries to key players as the Colts.

 

[Michigan Dave]

Don't forget that at the end of the Steeler game he had to make 2 key drives in the fourth quarter to give them a chance at the end of the game. It was not his fault that "the liguored up kicker" missed the FG at the end. Manning DID get them into position....at the end of a key playoff game....with almost no time on the clock.

I seem to remember the Colts with a chance to win late in the game, and Manning going 4 and out. The series right before the Bettis fumble. <cough><cough><GAG!!!!!>

 

[onegameatatime]

No kidding, IMHO last year we where devastated by injuries more than any team in the league. Had one of the most difficult schedules of any team and STILL made the playoffs.

All the media talks about are the players we've lost, yet we have gained far more in returning healthy players. I truly believe we are a better team (if we can stay healthy).

That caught my attention too. I've always thought Indy was especially lucky for their LACK of injuries, especially playing on a carpet (until recently). How many games did Harrison, Wayne, and James miss? Or Freeney? An Indy fan might point to a few players or games for Indy, but this is football.

Last year, didn't the Pats have 7 DBs on IR for much of the season, two OLs for much of the season, Tedy for 6 games, plus various other shorter term losses.

 

[arrellbee]

...... I still respect him as a top notch QB.

I can't argue with respecting his capabilities. However, I have a little problem with judging him as 'top notch'. My reply to your next comment gives some indication why.

Don't forget that at the end of the Steeler game he had to make 2 key drives in the fourth quarter to give them a chance at the end of the game. It was not his fault that "the liguored up kicker" missed the FG at the end. Manning DID get them into position....at the end of a key playoff game....with almost no time on the clock.

You have picked what is probably a great instance to see why Manning has a serious (so far fatal) flaw.

The instance you give occurred with 31 seconds left on the clock and the Colts in a time out. It was 2nd and 2. A field goal from that position would be 46 yards - it's not very fair to say even for Vanderjagt that this is a high odds field goal. So here is the crux. The Colts still had 2 remaining time outs. So what does any top notch QB do ? First option is probably the running play with the QB under center so that the defense does not have a 'gimmee' as to what the play will be. Surely with two downs remaining and two time outs, there is plenty of time to at least run the ball on 2nd down and see if you can pick up a few yards and a first down. At the very least, you cut the field goal range down from 46 yards. If you are concerned that the Steelers will jam the run, perhaps you fake the handoff and hit a receiver on a short pass pattern of some sort - probably preferably a sideline pattern so that the receiver can go out of bounds and stop the clock. Is there any doubt that Manning and Harrison and the other receivers have a high probability of completing such a pattern ??

So what does Manning do? Here's where you see his 'I am going to be the one to do it' flaw that has cost him crunch time game after game. Manning goes into the shotgun !! !! Talk about telgraphing to the defense. And then instead of going for a high probability short gain and the first down with lot's of time left, he goes for the glory play of a TD pass. And it's defensed. So now it's 3rd down 25 seconds left). So even on 3rd down, what is your best play ? There is still plenty of time and it seems like the best play is still a run to try to get 2 yards and a 1st down. My choice would be an outside run by James with which he will probably get at least 2 yards 95% of the time or better - or again, a sideline pass with handoff faked to James to tie up some defenders. And with the outside run, he can probably get out of bounds and stop the clock to take time pressure away and keep the two time outs. It's still critical to reduce the field goal range. So what does Manning do ?? ?? ?? He goes into the shotgun again !! !! And again, the play is set up to go for the long reception or TD. Results ? Incompletion without even a DB getting credit for a pass defensed. Now where are you at ? He looks good personally because he engineered the drive to get them barely within FG range, but at the end he has put his TEAM in about as rotten a situation as he could. It's a 46 yard FG attempt AND, even if they make it, the Steelers will get the ball with perhaps 10 to 15 seconds on the clock - maybe enough to get within field goal range.

So your example gives a really pertinent look at Peyton Manning and his decision making in crunch time. It tells you a lot and why I just can't rate him as a 'top notch' QB. I feel that Brady and a few others give their TEAM a better chance to win - and winning in the playoffs is what it is all about. Peyton gets the adulation and personal glory and his team gets the playoff losses.

So while he has had every break in the book (top notch receivers, at great RB, a very good OL, very few key injuries, an easy place to play home games, a soft division, etc,

To me, you have just painted a pretty clear picture. You could even add that he (the Colts) got the NFL to do a rule emphasis on contact with receivers that was to Manning's huge benefit. With all of this, as you indicate, he has still flunked in playoff time. This year they had the bye and home field advantage and still flunked it.

He IS a very good QB, and the Colts, even without Edge, will be very good this season.

Well, it remains to be seen how well they do this season. First, they have a neat schedule. This year they play the NFC East for 4 games, the AFC East for 4 games, plus Cincinatti and Denver. That should make things interesting. It's also possible that the Jags have progressed in their steady fashion to the point where they could challenge for a win in one of their games with the Colts. As commented in this thread, they have lost a couple of starting defensive players. And given the odds about what percentage of first round running backs become as good as James, I wouldn't bet on Addai giving them enough of a strong running game to keep defenses honest. Who knows. We'll just have to see.

BTW- if there IS one guy I'd like to get from the Colts, it would be their trainer. For one reason or another, the Colts have been as healthy over the course of the season, as any team in the league, in fact I can't think of a team in the league who have had fewer injuries to key players as the Colts.

That's an interesting comment. The issue of the trainers has come up before. But there are a couple reflections that may be pertinent. The Colts play more of a finesse game than physical as compared to the Pats or the NFL East as examples. So maybe there is a little less of a chance for injuries to happen. The other thing is that you have to look at the Patriots injuries and discount things like broken bones and obviously horrendous hits on knees that no amount of training regimen can protect against. I would also discount most ankle and knee injuries because there is little that can be done to 'strengthen' these joints. There is little support that can be had from musculature mechanically. It's basically a matter of how blessed a person is with respect to strength of ligaments and tendons that they are born with. I did an analysis about 3/4 the way through the last season and there were only 2 to 4 injuries that you could even consider might have been influenced by training regimens. Just a thought.

 

[mgcolby]

I can't argue with respecting his capabilities. However, I have a little problem with judging him as 'top notch'. My reply to your next comment gives some indication why.

You have picked what is probably a great instance to see why Manning has a serious (so far fatal) flaw.

The instance you give occurred with 31 seconds left on the clock and the Colts in a time out. It was 2nd and 2. A field goal from that position would be 46 yards - it's not very fair to say even for Vanderjagt that this is a high odds field goal. So here is the crux. The Colts still had 2 remaining time outs. So what does any top notch QB do ? First option is probably the running play with the QB under center so that the defense does not have a 'gimmee' as to what the play will be. Surely with two downs remaining and two time outs, there is plenty of time to at least run the ball on 2nd down and see if you can pick up a few yards and a first down. At the very least, you cut the field goal range down from 46 yards. If you are concerned that the Steelers will jam the run, perhaps you fake the handoff and hit a receiver on a short pass pattern of some sort - probably preferably a sideline pattern so that the receiver can go out of bounds and stop the clock. Is there any doubt that Manning and Harrison and the other receivers have a high probability of completing such a pattern ??

So what does Manning do? Here's where you see his 'I am going to be the one to do it' flaw that has cost him crunch time game after game. Manning goes into the shotgun !! !! Talk about telgraphing to the defense. And then instead of going for a high probability short gain and the first down with lot's of time left, he goes for the glory play of a TD pass. And it's defensed. So now it's 3rd down 25 seconds left). So even on 3rd down, what is your best play ? There is still plenty of time and it seems like the best play is still a run to try to get 2 yards and a 1st down. My choice would be an outside run by James with which he will probably get at least 2 yards 95% of the time or better - or again, a sideline pass with handoff faked to James to tie up some defenders. And with the outside run, he can probably get out of bounds and stop the clock to take time pressure away and keep the two time outs. It's still critical to reduce the field goal range. So what does Manning do ?? ?? ?? He goes into the shotgun again !! !! And again, the play is set up to go for the long reception or TD. Results ? Incompletion without even a DB getting credit for a pass defensed. Now where are you at ? He looks good personally because he engineered the drive to get them barely within FG range, but at the end he has put his TEAM in about as rotten a situation as he could. It's a 46 yard FG attempt AND, even if they make it, the Steelers will get the ball with perhaps 10 to 15 seconds on the clock - maybe enough to get within field goal range.

So your example gives a really pertinent look at Peyton Manning and his decision making in crunch time. It tells you a lot and why I just can't rate him as a 'top notch' QB. I feel that Brady and a few others give their TEAM a better chance to win - and winning in the playoffs is what it is all about. Peyton gets the adulation and personal glory and his team gets the playoff losses.

To me, you have just painted a pretty clear picture. You could even add that he (the Colts) got the NFL to do a rule emphasis on contact with receivers that was to Manning's huge benefit. With all of this, as you indicate, he has still flunked in playoff time. This year they had the bye and home field advantage and still flunked it.

Well, it remains to be seen how well they do this season. First, they have a neat schedule. This year they play the NFC East for 4 games, the AFC East for 4 games, plus Cincinatti and Denver. That should make things interesting. It's also possible that the Jags have progressed in their steady fashion to the point where they could challenge for a win in one of their games with the Colts. As commented in this thread, they have lost a couple of starting defensive players. And given the odds about what percentage of first round running backs become as good as James, I wouldn't bet on Addai giving them enough of a strong running game to keep defenses honest. Who knows. We'll just have to see.

That's an interesting comment. The issue of the trainers has come up before. But there are a couple reflections that may be pertinent. The Colts play more of a finesse game than physical as compared to the Pats or the NFL East as examples. So maybe there is a little less of a chance for injuries to happen. The other thing is that you have to look at the Patriots injuries and discount things like broken bones and obviously horrendous hits on knees that no amount of training regimen can protect against. I would also discount most ankle and knee injuries because there is little that can be done to 'strengthen' these joints. There is little support that can be had from musculature mechanically. It's basically a matter of how blessed a person is with respect to strength of ligaments and tendons that they are born with. I did an analysis about 3/4 the way through the last season and there were only 2 to 4 injuries that you could even consider might have been influenced by training regimens. Just a thought.

Outstanding post and you nailed it to a T! I was going to say the same thing, just a much shorter version. That explanation should be framed as a stand alone sticky thread for all of the colt trolls that will populate this board come the end of October!

 

[arrellbee]

Outstanding post and you nailed it to a T! I was going to say the same thing, just a much shorter version. That explanation should be framed as a stand alone sticky thread for all of the colt trolls that will populate this board come the end of October!

Thanks for the feedback. Makes it worthwhile to take the time to put together a perspective.

 

[mgcolby]

Thanks for the feedback. Makes it worthwhile to take the time to put together a perspective.

Anytime!

for the ten gods.

 

[shakadave]

Of Edge and Magic

It's amazing, but I actually think most Colts fans don't realize what a special back James was and how much he brought to their offense.

James's numbers speak for themselves, and yet I never thought he was THAT great a player. It's hard to put into words, but he was like Magic Johnson for me in that, even though he's obviously very good, he never scared me the way an Isaiah Thomas or a Priest Holmes did. Even Marvin Harrison scared me more. Maybe scared is the wrong word. Maybe I mean "hurt". Edge played well enough against us, but I never got that feeling of "this guy is killing us." Instead, it was more like "We can keep this guy under control well enough to win."

Maybe it's a tribute to Magic that his game was subtle enough to not really sting us (other than that Game 4 hook shot). Vinnie Johnson, Andrew Toney --- now those guys stung!

 

[Miguel]

He's probably talking about DT Tripplett. He was a rock inside while Freeney & Mathis freelanced.

Tripplett started 4 games in 2005, the 1st 2 games and the last 2 games of the regular season. Reagor started the other 12 regular season games and the post-season game. IMO, Reagor beat out Tripplett for a DT spot starting in the 3rd game of the regular season and did not start the last 2 games of the regular season only because the Colts were resting players in those meaningless games. I am at a loss at how a player who loses his starting position during the regular season and does not get it back is considered a starter after the season is over.

 

[Gumby]

BTW- if there IS one guy I'd like to get from the Colts, it would be their trainer. For one reason or another, the Colts have been as healthy over the course of the season, as any team in the league, in fact I can't think of a team in the league who have had fewer injuries to key players as the Colts.

NOT SO FAST.

I don't count lack of injuries solely as on the trainer. How about

1. as someone else mentioned Pats style of play is more physical; and that trends out to the whole AFCE. Our division, 6 of our 16 games, is a whole lot more physical than the AFCS.

2. The flag football rule implementation was designed/engineered by the Dolts. Dont' you think the refs are a little more sensitive to it when the Dolts are playing a game than say in a Pitt vs NE game.

3 Many of our injuries just can't be predicted - Tedy, Harrison, the Mawae inflicted injuries. Those were serious hits that have nothing to do with training regimen. It was just how the hit took place on the field. Bad luck; but that is the way it goes.

Not to say we couldn't study what they do; but personally I doubt their training regimen has anything to do with their lower rate of injuries.

 

[satz]

One of the greatest faults is defense or an offense cannot win a superbowl.some day will be good for 1 and other will be good for the other.Unless you have your defence that can be called upon on a bad day for the offence the colts will flater.

the other thing is they have too much money tied in the offence and using smaller faster defence might not work on a power house with big players.
This season they will meet the Jax talk about big and hungry i am thinking the colts will be buried :bricks: .

 

[soswalter]

The guy from the board said "Peyton will be a man on a mission this year."

Yeah, a mission to get his seventh career playoff loss. The guy is 3-6 in the postseason, and has to be in the sports lexicon referring to someone who chokes.

Indy will win its division, but will eventually lose in the first round to someone like Cincinnati. How can any Colts fan expect anything positive without Edgerrin James?

 

[Kdo5]

They've gone through INJURIES ... did he say?

Yes remember, they lost their KEY player Ryan Diem for a game, and had Marvin Harrison sitting out with a bum wrist for a few games. Oh yeah, Mike Doss got himself stabbed by his wife, that must have been why the Steelers scored on them so early. Injuries all around!!!!