Freeney, Taylor vs Seymour.

[belichickaholic]

Pardon my ignorance, but why is seymour listed as a defensive end and not a defensive tackle? What's the difference between a defensive end and a defensive tackle? Any help would be appreciated.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Welker83:

In order to do any sort of real analysis, you must first project how these guys would do in each other's position.

So we project Taylor at Seymour's position, a 3-4 End, or a 1 man DT when the Pats go to their all linebacker defense. Sorry, can't see Taylor doing much two-gapping at either position except being blown ten yards into the air on each down. Same for Freeney, who would be even less effective because Taylor at least is a long armed physical freak, Freeney is just plain short and small.

Now we project Seymour on a 4-3 line, unable to be given so much blocking attention anymore as in his 1,2 or 3 man fronts. And we free him up to pass rush instead of two gap. Guess what, he is just fine and his stats start to look more like Taylor's or Freeney's.

That is the difference between these players, and the reason that Seymour would be more valueable to most teams. Not all teams, but most.

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

Pardon my ignorance, but why is seymour listed as a defensive end and not a defensive tackle? What's the difference between a defensive end and a defensive tackle? Any help would be appreciated.

In a 4-3 allignment:

DE........DT........DT.........DE

In a 3-4:

DE.......NT..........DE


4-3 DEs tend to be significantly smaller than their 3-4 counterparts. Many 4-3 DEs would move to LB in the 3-4.

3-4 DEs tend to have the bulk/size to play as a 4-3 DT. Talented 3-4 DEs like Seymour can play anywhere on a 4-3 D-line.

3-4 Nose Tackles can play 4-3 DT positions, but are primarily wide-bodied, space-eating behemoths.

3-4 defenses are likely to be 2-gap oriented:

O....O....O....O....O
X..........X..........X

In a 2-gap scheme, the D-lineman is responsible for both sides of the O-lineman that a RB can run around. Therefore, a DL must attack his assigned OL head on, maul him, push him back, and be prepared to tackle a runner regardless of which side of the OL he tries to run around. In a 2-gap, DLs must read and react to see how a play is developing and must have the size to take on OL.

4-3 defenses tend to be 1-gap, which the DL agressively attempts to blow by his assigned OL in order to wreck havoc. 1-gap DLs don't have to read and react as much as 2-gappers, but must have speed/quickness more so than size to beat the OL off the snap.

I hope this helps.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

And, like he says, Seymour can play anywhere on the line and be effective, unlike Taylor or Freeney, who are mostly pure pass rushing DE's.

The reason Seymour is listed at DE is because it is a more prominent, recognized position of skill and the pay tends to be a lot better. It would be an insult to try to pay Seymour as a DT and then use him all over the line. A DT normally has much less versatility than a well rounded DE.

 

[Displaced - Fan]

Ok...just go with it for a second...

1)First and Ten. The QB hands the ball off toa RB and he's stuffed at the line of Scrimmage for no gain By DE Richard Seymour... so now it's second and Ten.

2) First and Ten QB takes the snap goes back to pass and is sacked by Jason Taylor for a 5 yard loss...now it's 2nd and 15...

So tell me...which one was a bigger play? which one had the most impact?

Now i am not by any means ragging on Seymour. Honestly he will always be underapreciated for what he does...and that is redirect the play and free up the LB's to make the tackle. But in our Fantasy driven big play NFL world a Sack is much more important than a run stuff...Especially cause you can always just run to the other side... So thats why they ranked freeney and taylor above seymour...

I think a more accurate situation would: First and Ten QB takes the snap goes back to pass, Seymour takes a triple coverage, allowing a LB to go in un-touched and sack to QB for a 5 yard loss. You see that's what the N.E. system is based on. The Dline eating up the blockers up front while the LB's make the plays.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Just to be fair, I will admit that Taylor is the best pure pass rusher, if that is the only thing you want in a DE. Freeney's whole gig is the ability to play with a lead all the time, and to simply have the luxury of pass rushing David Carr, or whoever, for the whole game.

 

[belichickaholic]

WOW! Thank-you: Brady-to-Branch and 5 Rings for Brady!!

That was an awesome explanation, I never really understood that whole 1 gap, 2 gap thing. Now I get it!!

Thanks for your help. I love this place, so much to learn!!

 

[Welker83]

Welker83:

In order to do any sort of real analysis, you must first project how these guys would do in each other's position.

So we project Taylor at Seymour's position, a 3-4 End, or a 1 man DT when the Pats go to their all linebacker defense. Sorry, can't see Taylor doing much two-gapping at either position except being blown ten yards into the air on each down. Same for Freeney, who would be even less effective because Taylor at least is a long armed physical freak, Freeney is just plain short and small.

Now we project Seymour on a 4-3 line, unable to be given so much blocking attention anymore as in his 1,2 or 3 man fronts. And we free him up to pass rush instead of two gap. Guess what, he is just fine and his stats start to look more like Taylor's or Freeney's.

That is the difference between these players, and the reason that Seymour would be more valueable to most teams. Not all teams, but most.

But you have it wrong... If Taylor or freeney played in a 3-4 they would be an outside LB that would make the tackle after Seymour tied up a blocker or two... This is apples to oranges...

 

[Welker83]

And, like he says, Seymour can play anywhere on the line and be effective, unlike Taylor or Freeney, who are mostly pure pass rushing DE's.

The reason Seymour is listed at DE is because it is a more prominent, recognized position of skill and the pay tends to be a lot better. It would be an insult to try to pay Seymour as a DT and then use him all over the line. A DT normally has much less versatility than a well rounded DE.

Apples to oranges again... Taylor and freeney are still top players when switched to pass rushing LB role in a 3-4 where Seymour would never be employed there... They are just differetnt types of players...

 

[Welker83]

I think a more accurate situation would: First and Ten QB takes the snap goes back to pass, Seymour takes a triple coverage, allowing a LB to go in un-touched and sack to QB for a 5 yard loss. You see that's what the N.E. system is based on. The Dline eating up the blockers up front while the LB's make the plays.

And thats why he'll always be "ranked" lower than the pass rushing guys..I'm not saying they are better..i'm just giving an explanation of why they were ranked as they were...

When you think DE do you think Run stopper or Pass Rusher? When a DE is drafted highly is it because he's a run stuffer or a pass rusher? If Seymour had been drafted by a 4-3 team would he be playing DT or DE?

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Welker:

Come on now! We are comparing DE, not LB. The fact is clear that Seymour is a much more versatile DE than those guys, which makes him more valueable to many teams. DE is WAY MORE valueable than LB, just look at where players are drafted and how they are compensated.

Talking about Taylor as a LB really is apples and oranges.

 

[Welker83]

Welker:

Come on now! We are comparing DE, not LB. The fact is clear that Seymour is a much more versatile DE than those guys, which makes him more valueable to many teams. DE is WAY MORE valueable than LB, just look at where players are drafted and how they are compensated.

Talking about Taylor as a LB really is apples and oranges.

Nope...just versatile in different ways.

Seymour..in a 4-3 would be a DT and in a 3-4 a DE so those are his 2 positions...

Where as players like taylor or freeney would become a LB in the 3-4 (Mcginest, Bruschi..sound familiar to players that made the transition)

You are trying to compare players with completely different skill sets and body types ALL of them ...Taylor is tall and lean, Freeney is short and Fast, Seymour is big and athletic...

It's like trying to compare a drag racer to an F1 car...each will dominate in their own categories but will ultimately fail when asked to do things they are not capable of.

In a 4-3 the defensive ends job is to rush the passer...Everything else is secondary. So since both freeney and taylor can rush the passer, and do it better than most in the league they are both top DE's.

in a 3-4 Seymour main job is to tie up blockers for LB's to blitz and stop the run...everything after that is secondaty (like sacking the QB)... Now he does his main job better than most in the league and because of that he's a top DE.

now as to the versatility claim your are wrong. All these players are versatile but in different ways. Taylor can play DE or LB. Thats versatility. He can play a short zone, and he's also been used as a TE.

Seymour is versatile. He can play any position on the line. He has been played as a FB.

All of these guys are effective. All of these guys are versatile. I want ALL of them on my team. BUT!!!!!!! They are all versatile in different ways and they all have different jobs that they all do well.

but the fact is a DE in a 4-3 is not a DE in a 3-4 where they need to do all the same things.

Seymour is not a speed rusher and taylor is not a o-line Blackhole...


So let me ask you this if you had all three of these players on your team where would you lin ethem up in a 3-4 and a 4-3 system?

4-3: DE: Taylor DT: Seymour, DE: freeney
3-4: DE seymour OLB: Taylor OLB: Freeney

 

[Lloyd_Christmas]

And thats why he'll always be "ranked" lower than the pass rushing guys..I'm not saying they are better..i'm just giving an explanation of why they were ranked as they were...

When you think DE do you think Run stopper or Pass Rusher? When a DE is drafted highly is it because he's a run stuffer or a pass rusher? If Seymour had been drafted by a 4-3 team would he be playing DT or DE?

Well, we have seen Seymour play all over the line and do it successully.

In order for your comparison to be accurate, Freeney and Taylor would have to be able to convert to OLB and be effective. I've heard others say that Taylor has played OLB, but I don't think Freeney has. I don't think you can just assume that they would excell at that position.

 

[Kdo5]

I think this is a proper assesment but I would say Taylor is the best of the 3. They are all GREAT players and I would love having any of them on my team. Luckily I do get one on the Fins.

Yeah because if Freeney or Seymour were on your team instead, you'd be creaming all over yourself that they are #1.

 

[Welker83]

Well, we have seen Seymour play all over the line and do it successully.

In order for your comparison to be accurate, Freeney and Taylor would have to be able to convert to OLB and be effective. I've heard others say that Taylor has played OLB, but I don't think Freeney has. I don't think you can just assume that they would excell at that position.

Vision this in your head...

6'1" 268 lbs...(played at 255 in college)

4.42 40 time.....

Now do you see a LB or a DE?

This furthers my point..just look at their frames... Freeney is the shortest, and the fastest but not the lightest. Seymour is the heaviest, tied for tallest and is the slowest. Taylor is the lightest, tied for the tallest, and middel for speed.

Taylor 6'6" 255 lbs
Freeney 6'1" 268 lbs
Seymour 6'6" 310 lbs

 

[Aqua4Ever04]

It's really hard to argue either way. The only difference is systems and the flip of a coin. While Seymour is a great all around player, Taylor and Freeney excel in pass rushing which leads to big plays that the average person is more likely to take notice of.

Very good assesment. I don't want to take anything away from Freeny or Taylor in the aspect of running game. But all 3 are great players and I think we can leave it at that.

 

[Welker83]

Very good assesment. I don't want to take anything away from Freeny or Taylor in the aspect of running game. But all 3 are great players and I think we can leave it at that.

I'll just leave it that all three have to be in the discussion for top DE overall.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Seymour plays in a different defensive system than Taylor and Freeney. Those two will have more eye popping stats due to the fact they are counted on to rush the QB more and get sacks. On the other hand Seymour's role is to pressure the D by taking on double teams and freeing up other guys. Apples to Oranges so to speak.

 

[maverick4]

This kind of debate reminds me a little bit like a Barry Sanders vs. Emmitt Smith debate. Do you want a RB who can't get consistent first downs, and often gets lost yardage, but busts out huge runs every other game? Or, do you take the RB who consistently gets 3-8 yards per run, who you can count on to sustain drives. In this example the sackmasters are like Sanders, and Seymour is like Smith.

Seymour gives the defense a tactical advantage every play because he requires two blockers. That means the offense plays 9 vs. 10 just to neutralize Seymour. Seymour won't get huge numbers, but his team's running and passing defense improve dramatically because of his presence.

Freeney and Taylor are great sack artists, but you can run right at them without fear, and even on passing downs they many times won't generate the 9 vs. 10 situation that Seymour commands.

I think if you are going to rank fantasy DE's, the sack numbers are more sexy. However, if you created a list by asking GM's who they would build their team around, I think Seymour emerges as the #1 DE.

.

 

[Alk]

This kind of debate reminds me a little bit like a Barry Sanders vs. Emmitt Smith debate. Do you want a RB who can't get consistent first downs, and often gets lost yardage, but busts out huge runs every other game? Or, do you take the RB who consistently gets 3-8 yards per run, who you can count on to sustain drives. In this example the sackmasters are like Sanders, and Seymour is like Smith.

You just opened up a whole new argument. Your description of Sanders is way off IMHO. If he was like you described, he wouldn't be anywhere near number 3 on the all time rushing list. Not to mention the fact if he hadn't retired so early he would be the one sitting at number one.