Franchise tag now in effect for 2011; will Pats tag Mankins?

[bucky]

Re: Pats Will "Likely" Slap Franchise Tag On Mankins

First. This isn't some homer type thing. If you are looking for one of the premier guards in the league you aren't going to find one in the draft that early. Are you trying to imply that because Mankins is only a Guard, that he is only worth no more than the 33rd pick? Which would be 2nd round pick 1. Are you tell me with no doubt that if your offensive line was in shambles and you needed to make a homerun pick to start building your offensive line around, that you would choose Wisniewksi,Pouncey,Costanza or Solder over a Probowl Left Guard? One that can run block,pass block in multiple blocking schemes. Already has nfl technique and literature down pat. Good luck with one of those precious draft picks panning out for ya. Great Guards don't just grow on trees.

Great guards don't grow in trees, but there is a plentiful supply of good ones. Mankins himself was picked with the 32nd pick, started from day 1, and in his rookie year was probably about 90% of what his is right now. Let's face it, playing Guard is not as hard as playing QB, DE, CB, WR, or even OT. In your example, if you have a pitiful OL, you're better off committing your resources for an OT or C than for Mankins.

 

[BPF]

Re: Pats Will "Likely" Slap Franchise Tag On Mankins

God...I hope not.

Maybe if Logan held up a little better during the playoffs we could get a higher pick.

 

[Shelterdog]

Re: Pats Will "Likely" Slap Franchise Tag On Mankins

First. This isn't some homer type thing. If you are looking for one of the premier guards in the league you aren't going to find one in the draft that early. Are you trying to imply that because Mankins is only a Guard, that he is only worth no more than the 33rd pick? Which would be 2nd round pick 1. Are you tell me with no doubt that if your offensive line was in shambles and you needed to make a homerun pick to start building your offensive line around, that you would choose Wisniewksi,Pouncey,Costanza or Solder over a Probowl Left Guard? One that can run block,pass block in multiple blocking schemes. Already has nfl technique and literature down pat. Good luck with one of those precious draft picks panning out for ya. Great Guards don't just grow on trees.

It's not Mankins for a first round pick--Mankins is obviously much better. It's trading Mankins for a first round pick and $8 million a year in cap space.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Pats Will "Likely" Slap Franchise Tag On Mankins

Neither have the Pats because they can franchise him again. I remember the Seahawks franchised OT Walter Jones 2 straights seasons before agreeing to long-term deal. The Pats also obviously gain by not having the risk of a long-term commitment.

Under current rules, to franchise Mankins again would cost the Patriots an additional 20%, meaning that Mankins would be getting paid more than $12.6M for that one season. They'd have Paid Mankins 1.5+10.5+12.6 (total of $24.6M) over 3 seasons, minus the famous "lost" money from the missed games this year, meaning the equivalent of a 3 year, $8.2M per, contract.

That brings us back to the same question:

What exactly would the Patriots have gained?

 

[Shelterdog]

Re: Pats Will "Likely" Slap Franchise Tag On Mankins

Under current rules, to franchise Mankins again would cost the Patriots an additional 20%, meaning that Mankins would be getting paid more than $12.6M for that one season. They'd have Paid Mankins 1.5+10.5+12.6 (total of $24.6M) over 3 seasons, minus the famous "lost" money from the missed games this year, meaning the equivalent of a 3 year, $8.2M per, contract.

That brings us back to the same question:

What exactly would the Patriots have gained?

They were never exposed to the risk of injury/decline in production/having problems with a long term contract under the new CBA.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Re: Pats Will "Likely" Slap Franchise Tag On Mankins

Maybe if Logan held up a little better during the playoffs we could get a higher pick.

And to think they didn't fail as a unit. Problem is Mankins can only do so much. Guards are linked to the center. If one of the links breaks then one of your guards or center are now trying stop 2 or 3 bodies from getting to Brady. It's like a leak in the dam. I don't think it was Mankins getting beat 1 on 1 in those losses. Rather our Center and rookie guard getting bullrushed right into the backfield. You see how well they hold up against 4-3 teams or 3-4 teams with smaller DT's. Enormous Center who can't be moved is the key. Problem is, there aren't enough of them to go around. Even Mangold get's pushed around sometimes by Ngata and Wilfork.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Pats Will "Likely" Slap Franchise Tag On Mankins

They were never exposed to the risk of injury/decline in production/having problems with a long term contract under the new CBA.

Given that they offered Mankins a long-term deal, but were reportedly trying to stick him with the RFA year, that was obviously not the issue. Mankins has lost nothing, and he's gained bargaining position. In the meantime, the Patriots have increased the likelihood that they'll need a LG in the immediate/near future.

 

[Shelterdog]

Re: Pats Will "Likely" Slap Franchise Tag On Mankins

Given that they offered Mankins a long-term deal, but were reportedly trying to stick him with the RFA year, that was obviously not the issue. Mankins has lost nothing, and he's gained bargaining position. In the meantime, the Patriots have increased the likelihood that they'll need a LG in the immediate/near future.

That doesn't follow at all.

They preferred the offer they made (the RFA year plus some kind of 5/35 million extension) to the strategy they used (i.e., using the RFA tender and the franchise tag as necessary), presumably because getting a great player for 6/38 outweighed the risks, but they preferred the strategy they used to paying about 6/54. How is that hard to understand at all? Now if you had a time machine they might go back and make a different decision, but that doesn't mean the decision was wrong at the time.

EDIT: Look at it this way.

How much have they paid Mankins?
How much will they have paid Mankins through the end of 2011 if there is no football?
How much would they have paid Mankins if they signed him for 6/50 or whatever, both now and through the end of 2011?
How

 

[mgteich]

Re: Pats Will "Likely" Slap Franchise Tag On Mankins

How much will Mankins in 2010 and 2011 earn if he is franchised? How much will he earn in 2012-2014?

That doesn't follow at all.

They preferred the offer they made (the RFA year plus some kind of 5/35 million extension) to the strategy they used (i.e., using the RFA tender and the franchise tag as necessary), presumably because getting a great player for 6/38 outweighed the risks, but they preferred the strategy they used to paying about 6/54. How is that hard to understand at all? Now if you had a time machine they might go back and make a different decision, but that doesn't mean the decision was wrong at the time.

EDIT: Look at it this way.

How much have they paid Mankins?
How much will they have paid Mankins through the end of 2011 if there is no football?
How much would they have paid Mankins if they signed him for 6/50 or whatever, both now and through the end of 2011?
How

 

[bucky]

Re: Pats Will "Likely" Slap Franchise Tag On Mankins

Mankins has lost nothing, and he's gained bargaining position.

I would not say that.

- Mankins had to play a season for about $750K. And although he only played half a season, it still took away from the earning potential of his overall career.

- Mankins had to assume the risk of playing on a 1 year deal. Though it appears he got through with no injury or setback in quality of play, that risk is still worth $$ to both the player and the team.

- With CBA uncertainty, it's unclear what type of contract Mankins will be able to get, or when he's going to see his payday.

- When the CBA gets done, there will be a very large pool of UFAs and almost certainly a salary cap. If anything, this puts him in a worse bargaining position than he would have been last year.

 

[Shelterdog]

Re: Pats Will "Likely" Slap Franchise Tag On Mankins

How much will Mankins in 2010 and 2011 earn if he is franchised? How much will he earn in 2012-2014?

Well he earned 1.5 in 2010.

The franchise tag is supposed to be about 10.5 million for offensive linemen in 2011-if there is a tag or a CBA.

Mac's Football Blog: Eagles Expected to Use Franchise Tag on QB Michael Vick

Anyone's guess how much he earns in 2012 - 2014. If there's a 160 million cap and he's healthy it'll be a lot. If he gets in a freak rodeo accident tomorrow then it'll be zero.

 

[BPF]

Re: Pats Will "Likely" Slap Franchise Tag On Mankins

Under current rules, to franchise Mankins again would cost the Patriots an additional 20%, meaning that Mankins would be getting paid more than $12.6M for that one season. They'd have Paid Mankins 1.5+10.5+12.6 (total of $24.6M) over 3 seasons, minus the famous "lost" money from the missed games this year, meaning the equivalent of a 3 year, $8.2M per, contract.

That brings us back to the same question:

What exactly would the Patriots have gained?

It takes two to make a deal and the Pats save $1.1 mil in that scenario when compared to Jahri Evans contract. That contract pays Evans $19 mil in first yr and $25.7 mil over first 3 yrs. In a season with no CBA in place and a potential lockout looming they didn't have to fork over $19 mil.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Pats Will "Likely" Slap Franchise Tag On Mankins

Mgteich already dealt with some of this, so I'll go with specific points:

They preferred the offer they made (the RFA year plus some kind of 5/35 million extension) to the strategy they used (i.e., using the RFA tender and the franchise tag as necessary), presumably because getting a great player for 6/38 outweighed the risks, but they preferred the strategy they used to paying about 6/54. How is that hard to understand at all? Now if you had a time machine they might go back and make a different decision, but that doesn't mean the decision was wrong at the time.

1.) The decision was pretty obviously wrong, even at the time, which is what some of us were pointing out. No time machine was ever necessary.

2.) Where are you getting 6/54, which is $9M per year?

EDIT: Look at it this way.

How much have they paid Mankins?
How much will they have paid Mankins through the end of 2011 if there is no football?
How much would they have paid Mankins if they signed him for 6/50 or whatever, both now and through the end of 2011?
How

The team offered a contract to Mankins, so the "if there is no football" was not an issue. Why do people feel the need to invent issues while ignoring the issues that already exist? The simple reality of the situation is that the Patriots needlessly inflicted the RFA tag on a good citizen of a player, because they decided to screw him over a one season exception written into the CBA rather than giving him the new contract he'd earned. That was their right to do, but it certainly wasn't a requirement.

To paraphrase/edit Chris Rock, "yeah, you can do it, but that don't mean it's to be done. You could drive a car with your feet if you want to. That don't make it a good idea."

 

[Shelterdog]

Re: Pats Will "Likely" Slap Franchise Tag On Mankins

To paraphrase/edit Chris Rock, "yeah, you can do it, but that don't mean it's to be done. You could drive a car with your feet if you want to. That don't make it a good idea."

Could you explain why it's a bad idea? You've said it was a bad idea fifty times but you never actually give a reason; you just say "obvious" a lot.

 

[mgteich]

Re: Pats Will "Likely" Slap Franchise Tag On Mankins

Mankins will be paid over $12M for his services for 2010 and 2011 (and he didn't even have to play for half of 2010. Mankins will have a free agent contract for his services at his choice of teams for 2012-2014, unless of course he is franchised at 20% about the average of the top 5 LT's in the league (this year's franchise x 1.2).

The patriots have surely screwed Mankins!

If anyone think that Mankins is sorry that he didn't sign a contract last year with the patriots, please speak up.

Well he earned 1.5 in 2010.

The franchise tag is supposed to be about 10.5 million for offensive linemen in 2011-if there is a tag or a CBA.

Mac's Football Blog: Eagles Expected to Use Franchise Tag on QB Michael Vick

Anyone's guess how much he earns in 2012 - 2014. If there's a 160 million cap and he's healthy it'll be a lot. If he gets in a freak rodeo accident tomorrow then it'll be zero.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Pats Will "Likely" Slap Franchise Tag On Mankins

Could you explain why it's a bad idea? You've said it was a bad idea fifty times but you never actually give a reason; you just say "obvious" a lot.

It's been done multiple times.

 

[Shelterdog]

Re: Pats Will "Likely" Slap Franchise Tag On Mankins

It's been done multiple times.

So your answer is no, you can't explain.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Pats Will "Likely" Slap Franchise Tag On Mankins

So your answer is no, you can't explain.

Given that I've already explained it here, by way of noting the lack of anything accomplished other than pissing off Mankins, the "answer" is that you should try reading the thread. If you can't find enough to satisfy you that way, you could use the site's search function.

 

[Shelterdog]

Re: Pats Will "Likely" Slap Franchise Tag On Mankins

Mankins will be paid over $12M for his services for 2010 and 2011 (and he didn't even have to play for half of 2010. Mankins will have a free agent contract for his services at his choice of teams for 2012-2014, unless of course he is franchised at 20% about the average of the top 5 LT's in the league (this year's franchise x 1.2).

The patriots have surely screwed Mankins!

If anyone think that Mankins is sorry that he didn't sign a contract last year with the patriots, please speak up.

Easy to say after a healthy year. What if he suffered a bad injury last year? What if there's not football next year? etc, etc.

The right analysis is to look at the deal at the time of the deal, not in hindsight.

 

[RobertWeathers]

The players have no leverage. When the CBA expires, the owners will insist on any tags placed would be carried over to the new CBA.

NFL, players disagree on franchise tag assignments - ESPN Boston

DALLAS -- Go ahead and add franchise tags to the lengthy list of issues the NFL and its players disagree about.

The league is telling clubs they can place that designation on players whose contracts are expiring, even if there's no new collective bargaining agreement to replace the one that ends March 3. The union is telling agents the NFL is wrong about that.

The franchise tag allows a team to prevent one player from becoming an unrestricted free agent.

Union executive director DeMaurice Smith said Thursday "if there is no CBA, the franchise tags will be meaningless."

Smith said there are fundamental disagreements between owners and players on how to draw up a new CBA. The two sides are scheduled to have their first formal bargaining session in more than two months on Saturday.