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For Those Advocating The Selection of Darren McFadden

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by sebman2112, Nov 11, 2007.

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  1. sebman2112

    sebman2112 Rookie

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    Maroney missed two games because of injury in 2006, and he's missed three games this year. I'd give him a little more time before I'd consider him injury prone. When healthy Maroney has done well (with the carries they've given him). In 2006 he averaged 4.3 ypc, added up 745yds behind Dillon, and 783yrds on Kick returns. So far this season he's averaged 4.7ypc, and he's only had two games with under a 5 ypc avg.

    While Maroney doesn't get a lot of looks as a receiver, he can catch the ball just fine. Did you watch the Redskins game? The Patriots don't use Maroney in that role more because they have Faulk. I'd like to see NE give Laurence more looks as a receiver though.

    I could understand your saying he's missed some games with injury, so you'd like to see him stay healthy before placing your trust in him, but I'm kind of surprised at wanting to replace him.

    Let's not let McFadden's being among a lot of peoples binkies cloud our vision. Saying NE should draft McFadden would be overlooking the fact that NE doesn't need him, and they have bigger issues. I mean, it's not like Maroney, Morris, and Faulk will all likely be on the 2008 roster, and it's not like there's going to be a bunch of good RB's in the 2008 draft class, right? I'd much rather see NE drop down a few spots and draft someone like Kenny Phillips, then use a second, third, or fourth on a RB to develope as either Morris or Faulk's replacement.

    People talk about Maroney running to upright, and his injury problems. McFadden is the definition of an upright runner. Also, he's built somewhat like a WR, and he's kind of top heavy. What do I mean by that? His upper body is long and developed, while his lower body should be more developed (thicker) for his size and position. I'm not saying the guy is going to be a bust, as I've been impressed with some of his college performances, but don't for a second think there aren't question marks concerning his ability to transfer his game to the NFL.

    Another thing to think about is the fame McFadden has already gained, and how that would effect his contract demands if selected 3rd, 4th, or 5th overall. I'd be willing to bet Darren's agent (especially with the succes of Paterson) is going to try and break the bank of whom ever drafts him, and NE's not about to fork over that kind of cash to a RB, especially with one first round contract (late first) already at the position.

    Finally, let's talk about how everyone is comparing McFadden to Adrian Peterson. I can see some of the comparison when it comes to running styles, and some of the other aspects of their games, but they're different runners. Peterson has a stronger lower body, more of an overall RB's build, and he's a tougher runner. When I say tougher, I mean he breaks more tackles, and is harder to take down. So, I wouldn't so quickly take Peterson's success as indication that McFadden will have that same level of success.
  2. danny88

    danny88 Banned

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    BB does not draft for need. He takes the best value. If thats a trade he makes the trade. If its for picks he takes the picks. Etc etc.

    Maroney is not a bust. Maroney is a injury machine.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2007
  3. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Pardon me, but this is one of my pet peeves. BB absolutely drafts for need! When has he ever used a 1st or 2nd on a guy who wouldn't be counted on to start by his 2nd season? On the rare occasion that there's a hole in the starting lineup -- e.g. LG in 2005 -- he drafts to that position. You just might not notice it because he carefully tries to avoid leaving those obvious holes, thus giving the team more flexibility on draft day.

    You cannot talk about "value" independent of need. Brady Quinn would have been a "value" pick for a lot of teams at #24 last year, but not for the Patriots.
  4. everlong

    everlong Rookie

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    I'm hoping McFadden is on the board when we draft so we can trade down. This draft lacks the pure #1 overall so it might be better if we're drafting 4th or 5th.

    Currently we would be picking 4th with Miami, St Louis and the Jets ahead of us. I don't see any of them drafting McFadden although I suppose the Jets could. Hopefully a couple of teams after us fall in love with him and we can trade down.

    Petersen getting hurt sucks I was hoping he would run for 2k to drive up McFadden's value. I know they're a different style of back but this is a copy cat league and his success would lead others to drafting a back high.
  5. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Amen. The Patriots are looking for value in their system. Right now, no QB is worth a first-round pick to the Pats; in fact, I'm not really sure any player available right now would be worth what a top-five pick would cost.
  6. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    And that's the thing. If the Pats can't trade back, what do they do? I refuse to believe that a safety or a WR is worth a top 5 pick to the Patriots. It has been mentioned that Son of Howie and McFadden are unlikely because of the use of cap dollars. Ditto QB. There's no CB on the board that merits a top 5 pick (and I'm going to say top 3...because I don't think the 49ers are going to win again).

    I think the direction to go is to get Jake Long, even if it requires moving up a spot or two.
  7. danny88

    danny88 Banned

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    If bb drafted on need alone he would have drafted a lb last year. He takes best player available on HIS board. My point was bb will not draft a player higher then he should since the pats need help at the position.


    I hope he drafts Long.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2007
  8. PATRIOTS-80

    PATRIOTS-80 Rookie

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    I would agree with you dryheat. The only thing that I would point out is that a high draft pick is signed for 6 years. Sey I believe only has three years on his contract. Ditto with Maroney.

    The cream of the crop production of a top 5 pick should be the last three years of his six year contract (assuming he gets better each year.) So if BB decides in the longterm to replace Sey with Son of Howie, with Sey beinging the mentor for three years. I could see that.
  9. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Chris Long is a nice story but I don't think he is worth a top 5 pick, he has experience in the 3-4 but is at least 20 pounds lighter than our starting DEs. Smells like a better version of Klecko to me.

    The locks appear to be Jake Long (OT), Dorsey (DT) and then maybe McFadden. After that is it a crap shoot. It would be nice if a couple of the QBs would actually start to play some decent football.

    As far as McFadden goes, the reason he would be picked is because he improves the team* . <---- period

    Maroney would slide into a reserve role or be cut / traded, it is nothing personal. Maroney's cap numbers.are managable, I would keep him, you can never have too much depth at RB (or any other position).

    Cap numbers, next 3 years.
    Maroney, Laurence 1,634,220 1,774,220 2,009,220 UFA

    *Standard disclaimer, I would trade down. Top B+ players are better and more affordable than an A player.
  10. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    I agree that McFadden would improve the team. He just has to be better than Kyle Eckel for that to be true. There are a lot of QBs out there that improve the team over Matt Guttierez, but I wouldn't draft one on the first day. God knows that punter could be improved. Depth guys on the OL could be improved.

    "Improving the team" though, seems to be not enough a reason for spending a top 5 pick on McFadden.

    I also think many of us are forgetting how great Maroney was at UM. I think McFadden is the best RB in the draft, but I'm not 100% that he'll be a better pro than Maroney, whom I thought was the best RB in the draft two years ago.
  11. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    - After the FA signings, including A. Thomas, the Pats had no real need at ANY position for 2007. They did have a glaring need at safety for 2008.
    - If your point was really "bb will not draft a player higher then he should," awesome. Nobody on the planet will argue with you. But if you go back to your original post, your point seemed to be that BB won't avoid a position (RB) because of the perception that it's not needed. Or that need isn't a central factor in his drafts. I disagree with both statements.
    - Which Long?
  12. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I disagree (respectively of course). IMO McFadden will be a much better pro than Maroney, McF improves the team because he is better than the #1 starter. This pushes the rest of the depth down.

    It is a good debate, to pick McFadden or not but it has been beaten to death, I have nothing left to add that hasn't been said 1,000 times.
  13. danny88

    danny88 Banned

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    Howies son.
  14. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Too true. And it's November!!! :eek:

    With two low firsts last year, almost anything was possible. If it's really a top-5 pick this year, I fear we're doomed for months and months of hashing over a tiny handful of players. Sigh.

    So who do you like at the end of the 2nd? :)
  15. mcbee

    mcbee Banned

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    He will be much better? How in the world would you know? The world is littered with can't miss RB prospects who missed. And you have to pay him as though he is a can't miss no matter what he does.

    I would argue that any high pick (top 10) isn't worth the money that has to be guaranteed.

    The art of 'value' is buying something cheaper than the value you get. Paying a great player 10M per year isn't value unless he's worth more than that. Paying a good player 1M per is a great value as it frees money to pay a great player.
  16. ayjackson

    ayjackson Rookie

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    Obviously he's projecting. Any draft pick can bust. Most experts would likely project McFadden to be a better back than Maroney. Not many would project Chris Long or Dean Dorsey to be a better DE in our defense than Ty Warren or Richard Seymour or maybe even Richard Green.

    At least, that's how I see it.
  17. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I had a big, long, fancy response but then my browser crashed... after punching the wall I am back, here is the short version.

    I don't know he will be better, I really don't know anything, I am just a stupid fan. I believe in internet slang IMO means In My Opinion, so in my opinion I think Mcfadden will be a better pro because when compared against Maroney (college Maroney) McFadden is - bigger, stronger, faster, has better hands, more productive, far more highly rated by the evaluators and plays against much harder competition. Other than that they are about the same.

    Value, we here talking about value? I don't want the Pats to pick in the top 5 but if they need and McFadden can be an impact player I would take him if I really, really had to. And if he was selected the team would be better (cap stuff aside).
  18. VJCPatriot

    VJCPatriot Rookie

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    Well preaching to the choir. And don't forget that the Patriots have 'doubled up' on a position they recently drafted before. Daniel Graham followed by Watson. Guess which player is still on the team? I don't see why Maroney followed by McFadden couldn't happen, considering past history.
  19. sebman2112

    sebman2112 Rookie

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    You simply don't understand the difference.

    See, using Graham and Watson as an example would be fine, if the situation wasn't completely different. McFadden drafted in the top 4-5 will sign a contract equal to 3-4 Maroney contracts. Do you understand the implications this contract would have on NE's salary cap? It seems completely unrealistic to think Pioli and BB would put that kind of strain on their cap for a rookie RB.

    Even if you think McFadden will be a better RB than Maroney, do you think he'll produce 3-4 times more than Maroney? This is a question you have to ask yourself.

    Also, NE was trying to install a two TE system at the time, and they frequently used three TE's in-game. For the most part NE hasn't lined two RB's up in the backfield together (I consider Evans a FB). So, there's a difference in the Patriots use of the two positions.

    I'll leave you with this. Scott Pioli has said he doesn't see the value in top ten selections, as he thinks the contracts are far to extreme. He believes the sweet spot in the draft comes from around 14-28. I tend to agree with him. There's been plenty of players drafted in that range of late who ended up being far better pros than a lot of the "can't miss" athletes taken in the top 5-10, and their contracts are substantially smaller.
  20. Crazyeechrispats1

    Crazyeechrispats1 Rookie

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    I've just watched some Darren Mcfadden highlight videos, one thing I notice is he actually runs right up the middle at times instead of hesitate on what hole to pick.
    I'd love to draft him better us than the Jets, although what I see is our personnel department doing what's best for the team rather it's drafting this guy or trading the pick for more guys.
    One thing is imagine a backfield of Mcfadden and MAroney at the same time on the field defenses won't know will get the ball and who to respect.
  21. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    Are you advocating the Pats changing their whole offensive system when they look to have the greatest offense in history right now? Who are you going to sit in order to put another back in the backfield? Welker? Watson? Moss? Are you going to bring in one to use as a fullback in goalline situations? I can see the dual RB set used for gimmicky stuff a few times a year, but that's about it.
  22. Crazyeechrispats1

    Crazyeechrispats1 Rookie

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    Well there is no promise that Stallworth's option get's picked up, I hope to god Randy Moss stays.
    I'm just saying if BB decides Maroney hasn't been that guy, and i'm not saying he's not.
    If BB and SP say were gonna take the best player available and hurt the jet's in the process.
    Then can it really be a bad thing?
    I know the cap hit would be incredibly high especially with all the hype this guy is getting, but if he is head and shoulders in the eyes of the front office that much better than every rb in the draft or they decide he's better than alot or any rb in the league.
    I think they could make that move.
    I guess I just don't wanna see Seau Bru and Vrabs chasing this guy wearing gang green, Like BB did with Wes Welker instead of defending the guy bring him in.
    If they think he can be that special I can see the Patriots either trading with a team what wants him just to get him out of the division or choose him themselves.
    Now assuming we lock up Samuel and Moss then really we can afford to add best player available or trade the pick for a known stud like a Suggs or Ware.
    Or maybe we could get Dansby who really wants to resign i the desert?
    Having 2 explosive backs i'm sure we could add a few wrinkles on the offense to scare the heck out of teams and just something extra to prepare for.
    Although I think the RB on Illinois looks impressive as well and maybe he's there in the second or third round.
    I'm not giving up on Maroney at all matter of fact I expect him to be a big part of what we do this sunday night in Buffallo.
    I guess I just want to get the most game changing player available in the spot we take.
    It's not every year in the BB dynasty that we have the change of a top 5 or 10 draft pick.
  23. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I am pretty sure won't have the cap room to:
    Sign Moss - $4 years, $30M, could be much higher
    Sign Samuel - 5 years , $55M, could be higher
    Sign Dansby - $5 years, $30M
    Take on a veteran salary (Suggs will get way over $50 on the market and why would Dallas trade Ware? he is a very good player signed for cheap money)
    Draft a top 5 pick - $6 years, $45- $60M

    It is a cruse of being a good team, very hard for rookies to come in and take a veterans job. Ideally young guys can come in and fil the 48-53 spots on the roster and eventually work their way from special teams into a backup role, if you get lucky some will become starters.

    Next year 2 of the top3 CBs are FAs and 2 of the top 5 LBs are free agents. In both cases there is really no one on the current roster who could fill these roles and have anywhere near the production of the players who may leave.

    All the talk of the Colts being in cap hell, but they generally do a good job of preparing for losess (Addai for James, Jackson as a CB, Ugoh for Glenn). They generally run lower on depth than the Patriots but the front level positions are usually covered.

    In 2008 there will be a lot of turnover on the Patriots roster, maybe the most since 2001 and it looks like a lot of young players or scrap heap veterans will be in key positions on the defense. Maybe I talked myself into it, if we have to (gun to head) draft a player in the top five and McFadden is available it could make sense, having an offense the consistently scores over 35 PPG covers up a lot of issues on defense.
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2007
  24. sebman2112

    sebman2112 Rookie

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    Exactly, if NE has to worry about resigning Moss, keeping Stallworth, and others than what the heck makes people think they'd use that money on McFadden?

    Here's something I recently posted on the subject of NE's first round pick:

    The Patriots won't worry about getting full market value, as they'll consider the drop in contract prices part of the value. I think they would easily get a 2nd rounder in return for a trade down from 2-3 to 6-8, and if they wanted another 2nd for trading down to the 12-16 range. That's why I say if the Cowboys came calling with those two likely late first rounders, the Patriots would ask for an additional 2nd, but they wouldn't let fair market value get in their way. Again, the Patriots consider those type of picks and contracts to be gold. This is a lot different than some other teams, which is why NE can still keep making trades every year.

    Some of us worry "Well, the Patriots are a potential championship team, and they've done very well with past trades, so teams aren't going to want to trade with them". Sorry, but that isn't the correct mindset. Think about it, if I thought someone like Glen Dorsey or McFadden were among the best college players to come out for a long time at their position and I had a need at that position, do you think I'd let NE's previous track record get in my way? All most teams are worried about is getting better, and selling tickets. If it takes giving up a top 10 pick plus their 2nd to move up for someone they really want they'll do it. If I thought that player was special, and I had a need for him I'd also see keeping him away from the Patriots as an added plus.

    Remember, these guys have jobs on the line, and drafting one of the more well known players in the draft can provide you with a little job security, even if your team doesn't improve right away. Why? Because that well known player can pull in more ticket sales, and help revive the popularity (at least short term) of a losing team.

    Getting back to the top 2-4 contracts. They will be substantially more than what NE has given players like Adalius Thomas, Rosevelt Colvin, Ty Warren, and others. A.D. Thomas received a $12M signing bonus, and his total take over five years will be $35.04M (including that signing bonus). Rosevelt Colvin signed a 6 year $25.85M contract which wasn't high at all when you realize he was among the top free agents that year. NE has since restructured that contract, which has increased his current and 2008 cap hit, but the overall deal when signed wasn't high. Ty Warren signed a 5 year $36M contract extension with $18M guaranteed.

    Someone in the top 2-4 (especially McFadden) IS NOT going to get a contract simular in figures to those. Top 2-4 contracts are bringing in $50-59M+ with guaranteed money anywhere from $24-30M. For example, RB Reggie Bush received $24M guaranteed as part of his six year $54M contract. People who know contracts will tell you guaranteed money is the key, and these top picks are getting a ton of guaranteed money. This is why as Patriots fans we should realize Pioli and BB aren't likely to draft someone for that money.
  25. mcbee

    mcbee Banned

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    Exactly. It's gotten so bad that it's almost worth it to pay to trade down. You have to guarantee a guy huge money when he might not even be that good. The difference between the price you pay and the player you get is the worst at the top of the first round, unless you're talking about an Elway or Marino and sure-thing QBs bust all the time. The best place to add value is the 3rd-5th rounds...if you've done your scouting well, you can add a good player for peanuts.

    Draft McFadden to keep him out of "gang green colors"? Yeah, that makes sense. Because they'd be unbeatable with him. OK.
  26. Crazyeechrispats1

    Crazyeechrispats1 Rookie

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    All I'm trying to say and I agree with everyone's points,
    Is we have to at least look at the possibility that Mcfadden could be the highest rated player on their draft board.
    Would it be a huge risk to draft him?
    It definitely could blow up in our face, could it also make our ground game considerably better?
    I see no instance in how it couldn't.
    Do we have 3 solid rb's in Faulk, Maroney, and Morris?
    Definitely could Mcfadden take the roster spot of Evans and possibly another player?
    No question and it would be a huge upgrade at least in evans spot.
    Now I know we could draft a guy in the second, third, fourth heck fifth sixth and seventh rounds and could possibly be a upgrade.
    The draft is a inexact science.
    The fact his coaches one who seen Barry Sanders first hand said he is like a Barry sanders clone show's this guy is special.
    My preference would be to trade the pick for a kings ransom, only if we can get it.
    It's almost like New Orleans with Reggie Bush, teams wanted to trade there was no offers they saw that appealed to them enough so they took him.
    My draft dream scenario is that were picking ahead of the Jet's and BB holds Mangini over the fire for him giving up multiple picks in multiple years and or players.
    Conventional wisdom is Mangini would draft a lineman or trade down.
    Although we have to look at the prospect of Mangini being a desperate man and risking the future of the Rats for a guy who could be a potential AP clone.
    I think that would be the sweetest victory ever to win the superbowl, I don't put much thought in the undefeated talk it be a incredible task.
    Have Mangini give up the next 2 or 3 drafts for a guy he thinks can be his savior of his precious job in New York.
    You know BB would just sprank wittle Eric so bad in a trade, that he'd never take the tinfoil hat off even on tv.
    So these are some of my thoughts shoot I know the season isn't even over yet but what the niners are doing for the Patriots is beautiful so far and can't thank them enough.
  27. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    So essentially the Pats signed AD and Ty Warren for the same money as a top 5 pick.

    Here is a breakdown of the Salaries from last year's first round (2007):
    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showpost.php?p=627871&postcount=1
  28. Crazyeechrispats1

    Crazyeechrispats1 Rookie

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    Yes I see a trade down I guess I just hope we spank the team we trade with in the deal and I hope it's the Jet's who make that deal with the devil so to speak.
  29. sebman2112

    sebman2112 Rookie

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    Darren McFadden is absolutely NOT a Barry Sanders clone. His running style and physical build are completely different. I'm a big time fan of Sanders, so I already know, but for the younger members of the board here's a video highlighting his ability. Someone's just trying to sell McFadden high. If anything he's more like a combo of Marcus Allen and the USC OJ Simpson. That's not a bad thing at all mind you, I'm just saying that comparison is completely off the mark.

    The Jets and Patriots likely WILL NOT trade with eachother, as their is to much bad blood between the two franchises.

    Mangini might be that stupid, but I doubt the Jets would make that kind of trade with NE. Plus, the Jets suck, so they are likely going to pick ahead of the Patriots anyways.
  30. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    My Jersey:

    #75 Jersey
    He reminds me most of former Buckeye/Viking Robert Smith.
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