For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem...

[Kontradiction]

Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

Since his record as a coach has improved EVERY year, I'm afraid that it doesn't.

His record as a coach has improved along with the talent on the team. Prime example, they went to the playoffs and got knocked out in the first round last year with Tarvaris Jackson in at QB. This year, they got a Pro Bowler and have seen their record improve and have advanced to the championship. Brad Childress is a bad coach. The only reason his team is where they are now is due to talent. Talent overrides coaching, which was my original point. The fact that you have pointed out the Vikings' record in his first year of coaching and how it has gotten steadily better (along with the talent level) further cements my original point.

IMO, I think you have failed to properly understand what that original point was.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

Oh, and it's also hilarious how there hasn't been anybody here that has been able to answer my question. Even more funny is the amount of you that are tip-toeing the line but seem to be actually afraid to come out and say, publicly, that you think Childress is a good coach. By the way, this doesn't have to be about Childress either. The Vikings were just an example. I could just as easily point out Caldwell and Tubby Wrecks.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

Childress is a good coach - as a Head Coach he's been average and sometimes hilarious in a train wreck sort of way, and a coach whom I can cheerfully despise. His team is in the NFCCG, talent certainly got him there - as we were somewhat painfully reminded of this season - I still cheerfully despise him, but he's not a "bad" coach by definition, just a limp richard at whom we can sneer.

 

[upstater1]

Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

Belichick didn't fire Pees. As for the rest of what you wrote, I can only state that you seemingly have never held a management position.

Well, I have been in management, am in management now.

SMYsays he was fired. others say he wasn't, that he was retiring for health reasons. Then he goes and tries for jobs in Miami and Denver.

Yeah, right. This is called, we're letting you go, but you have the option of resigning.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

No doubt in my mind Pees was going to be fired but "I am sick and am leaving" sounds better.

It was BS from the start IMO

Probably the same for Bruschi who was likely to get cut but opt to announce retirement instead because it 'sounded better'.

 

[upstater1]

Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

"It is what it is"

Belichick bought the groceries and for the most part determines where and how the lettuce and apples are used. The best chef in the world can't make a great salad with brown lettuce.

We'll see next year. If next year's defense is a ton better, maybe it will be because of the first round pick. That will be a valid argument. It could be because Darius Butler is better than Shawn Springs. Maybe we'll draft an OLB who will give us more than Adalius. It will be interesting though, and I would not be shocked at all to see the D improve significantly even without a rookie who can step in on day 1 and make an impact.

 

[upstater1]

Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

Could you link me to the quote where BB "intimated" the situation with O'Brien was suboptimal? Thanks.

I'm talking about his relationship with O'Brien, not O'Brien's abilities. If he fires or demotes O'Brien, then obviously that will be telling as to how he feels about O'Brien's abilities. But when Belichick said that the coaching was not optimal (including himself in that) and then said that Weis and Crennel used to check him all the time (and that he's not getting as much these days) I'd say that means in Belichick's mind, the coaching situation isn't optimal.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

I'm talking about his relationship with O'Brien, not O'Brien's abilities. If he fires or demotes O'Brien, then obviously that will be telling as to how he feels about O'Brien's abilities. But when Belichick said that the coaching was not optimal (including himself in that) and then said that Weis and Crennel used to check him all the time (and that he's not getting as much these days) I'd say that means in Belichick's mind, the coaching situation isn't optimal.

He never once said either of those two things.

Q: This is kind of a hard one, but a lot of the guys that are on your staff now – as talented as they may be – weren't on your staff before you were Bill Belichick, three-time Super Bowl Champion. I wonder if there isn't a level of awe that they may feel to be on your staff, whereas Josh McDaniels, Tom Dimitroff, Scott Pioli, Charlie Weis, you all came up together. What I'm driving at is are you getting enough pushback from the guys on your staff? Do you know what I mean?

BB: Yeah, absolutely. And I've talked to other coaches about that – coaches that are pretty well established, and I get the nature of your question. There's definitely Romeo [Crennel] or Charlie or somebody; they wouldn't really be afraid to at times say, 'What are you doing? Are you serious? Are you seriously considering that?' And then there is certainly another level of coach that at that time or at this time, they just wouldn't say that to me. And I mean, I understand that and that's … and I was like that. There was a point in time where I was like that, where I would never say to, whether it was coach [Ted] Marchibroda or Red Miller or whoever, I wouldn't. And then there was a point in time where I would, whether it was Bill [Parcells] or – mostly Bill. There's a point in time where you reach a point or you have a relationship and you feel more comfortable saying things that you just wouldn't have said – even with that guy – a few years earlier. I definitely get where you're at on that and I mean, I understand that. We try to have an open communication, an open forum on some things and some things aren't open. Some things are 'This is the way they're going to be.' But I understand what you're getting at and I think that's something, as a head coach, you have to be conscious of and I am. I'm not saying a do a great job of it. I don't know whether I do or not, but I'm definitely conscious of that and I get what you're saying there.

 

[mcmurtry86]

Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

...or at least more of a problem than the talent drop-off, then I would love for you to explain to me in detail how that Vikings are in the NFC Championship game in spite of having Brad Childress as their coach.

Plenty of teams have won with average (relative to other playoff teams) talent and elite coaching

Plenty of teams have won with elite talent and mediocre coaching

Plenty of teams have NOT won with elite talent and mediocre coaching

Plenty of teams have NOT won with average talent and elite coaching

You're over simplifying the case of the Vikings. Childress is a mediocre head coach but he has a loaded balanced offense, a dominant front 7 (although EJ Henderson being hurt has diminished it a bit) and one of the better defensive coordinators in the game in Leslie Frazier.

The Patriots' struggles were a result of both coaching and roster deficiencies, I don't think anyone would argue that both don't need to be upgraded. That said, it's absurd for anyone to claim to know which of those 2 factors was "more" responsible for the lack of success this year, there's simply no way to know for sure.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

If Pees is in as DC for Denver, then BB fired him. No way he stepped down for the same position in Denver. Very likely BB was nice enough to allow him to step down so he wouldn't get the label "fired"

Actually, it's possible that he "stepped down for the same position in Denver". That very situation just happened with the Denver DC going off to Miami. People here are speculating, nothing more.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

Oh, and it's also hilarious how there hasn't been anybody here that has been able to answer my question. Even more funny is the amount of you that are tip-toeing the line but seem to be actually afraid to come out and say, publicly, that you think Childress is a good coach. By the way, this doesn't have to be about Childress either. The Vikings were just an example. I could just as easily point out Caldwell and Tubby Wrecks.

Alright I'll say it. You put O'Brien and Pees in as coordinators in on the 2004 Pats, they win the SB. Happy?

Brad Childress in charge of the 85 Bears they win the SB.

God sakes, Kontra. You know the answer. You are smart. Why ask the masses? Talent does override coaching absolutely.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

Well, I have been in management, am in management now.

SMYsays he was fired. others say he wasn't, that he was retiring for health reasons. Then he goes and tries for jobs in Miami and Denver.

Yeah, right. This is called, we're letting you go, but you have the option of resigning.

First, you can't fire someone who's contract has ended, because you can't fire a non-employee.

Second, regardless of how "that transfer of ideas, orders or commincation from Belichick to Pees were running smoothly", sometimes that lower man on the totem pole gets the axe.

Basic business, basic management.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

Alright I'll say it. You put O'Brien and Pees in as coordinators in on the 2004 Pats, they win the SB. Happy?

Brad Childress in charge of the 85 Bears they win the SB.

God sakes, Kontra. You know the answer. You are smart. Why ask the masses? Talent does override coaching absolutely.

Because I just have to be a douche as many times as possible. No, but seriously (and this isn't directed at you), but I've seen people say more than a few times that our problems this season had more to do with coaching then talent. There are even people that post here (mav... well, in his case, postED here) who believe that talent had absolutely nothing to do with it and it was all coaching. This thread is more or less meant for those people, not the people who can see that there was a problem with both this year, but that a talent lapse was a bigger part of the team's woes (like you).

 

[RobertWeathers]

Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

Because I just have to be a douche as many times as possible.

LOL

No, but seriously (and this isn't directed at you), but I've seen people say more than a few times that our problems this season had more to do with coaching then talent.

For me, its talent #1. BB is the best. Does he make mistakes? Sure. Did Pees do a great job 100% of the time? No, but he was not the core problem. I don't know what to make of O'Brien. If he continues with the predictable playcalling and poor 2nd 1/2 adjustments, then I'll say he needs to go.

There are even people that post here (mav... well, in his case, postED here) who believe that talent had absolutely nothing to do with it and it was all coaching. This thread is more or less meant for those people, not the people who can see that there was a problem with both this year, but that a talent lapse was a bigger part of the team's woes (like you).

This team has talent. Not enough though. Could a couple of 1/2 time adjustments by O'Brien gotten this team to 11-5 or 12-4? Don't know but after all that has went on with losing Welker, I do wonder how far they really would have gone...

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

For me, its talent #1. BB is the best. Does he make mistakes? Sure. Did Pees do a great job 100% of the time? No, but he was not the core problem. I don't know what to make of O'Brien. If he continues with the predictable playcalling and poor 2nd 1/2 adjustments, then I'll say he needs to go.

Well McDaniels was extremely raw in his first season as well and improved to become a great OC. However, I don't remember McDaniels calling the same draw play to Kevin Faulk up the A-Gaps 20+ times a game. That play was so predictable it wasn't even funny. I expect O'Brien to improve in 2010. BB even said himself that it took about a year for him before he got comfortable in a system.

 

[Patjew]

Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

If there was ever a time in which I wish Mav was here still, it would be for this thread. He is pretty much the posterchild of the, "it's all the coordinators" line of thinking.

Bite your tongue!

 

[upstater1]

Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

First, you can't fire someone who's contract has ended, because you can't fire a non-employee.

Second, regardless of how "that transfer of ideas, orders or commincation from Belichick to Pees were running smoothly", sometimes that lower man on the totem pole gets the axe.

Basic business, basic management.

I'm sure Belichick is not worried about appearances. He's more worried about winning.

 

[upstater1]

Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

He never once said either of those two things.

Well, first off, he criticized the coaching and his own coaching in his press conference. He said they need to do a better job.

As for the second part in this interview, it's right in his answer: "coaches...at this time, they just wouldn't say that to me."

 

[emoney_33]

Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

Well, first off, he criticized the coaching and his own coaching in his press conference. He said they need to do a better job.

As he does basically after every single loss ever.

As for the second part in this interview, it's right in his answer: "coaches...at this time, they just wouldn't say that to me."

Talk about cutting out all context. Even if you want to completely cut out the entire quote and just use one sentence, it is:

And then there is certainly another level of coach that at that time or at this time, they just wouldn't say that to me.

It's a general saying "at that time or this time"... You should probably go listen to the press conference again. How one can listen to what he said and come away with "Obrien and/or others don't question me enough" is beyond me.

People tend to read way too far into things.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

...or at least more of a problem than the talent drop-off, then I would love for you to explain to me in detail how that Vikings are in the NFC Championship game in spite of having Brad Childress as their coach.

It's possible to succeed in spite of oneself, one might be doing enough things rights that it overshadows the things one is doing wrong, but that doesn't mean it's good to do the wrong things.