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For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem...

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by KontradictioN, Jan 20, 2010.

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  1. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    ...or at least more of a problem than the talent drop-off, then I would love for you to explain to me in detail how that Vikings are in the NFC Championship game in spite of having Brad Childress as their coach.
  2. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

    Oh, and I'm also in the mood for a gut laugh, so if you actually believe that Childress is a good coach, then please explain why.
  3. aurakilla

    aurakilla Rookie

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    Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

    ya and the jets are in the afc one despite............everything
  4. Don_the_patfan

    Don_the_patfan Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

    If you dont think there is a coaching problem in New England:

    1. Why was three no attempt to retain Pees if he did such a good job? If he gets hired by Denver or anyone, medical reasons are out of the window.

    2. Why did our Director of player personnel work with WR during the season? Dont we have a WR coach aka O'Shea? And if so why was there a need for someone in personnel to do double duty? Why dont other teams do that? Could it be that O'Shea doesnt have enough experience?

    3. Who was the official OC of this team this year? And if O'brien do you think he can do both QB coach and OC? And if the answer to that is yes why dont other teams pull double duties as we do here in NE.

    Since we are into questions :cool:
  5. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

    and Caldwell's a rookie HC. Out of the four teams left, only one of them is coached by a guy who we know for certain is good at his job.

    Coaching was definitely a major issue this season, but so was talent. Talent can overcome mediocre coaching, for the most part at least. If you don't have talent, though, coaching can only do so much for you.
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2010
  6. robertweathers

    robertweathers Rookie

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    Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

    2006-6-10
    2007-8-8
    2008-10-6
    2009-12-4

    If I were his boss, I would be pleased with his job performance.

    Why are you all over "Chilly" today, Kontra?
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2010
  7. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

    I never said there wasn't a coaching problem. I've said numerous times that I don't think B.O.B. did a good job of calling the plays this year, at all. But both Pees and O'Brien (especially Pees) had a huge talent drop-off as compared to our past two years worth of teams. It's simple: without playmakers, your team is going to stall.

    However, my question is geared to the people that believe that the coaching staff was more to blame this season than the personnel. The Vikings are a perfect example. Despite having Childress, who is a mental midgit as their coach, they are in the NFCCG with a very good chance to go to the Super Bowl. On top of that, I don't think Jim Caldwell is a very good coach at all, yet his team is in the AFCCG, one game away from the big dance.

    Hopefully someone can actually ANSWER this question.
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2010
  8. Sicilian

    Sicilian On the Roster

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    Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

    Please give me a detailed breakdown of the other 31 teams' coaching staffs. Since you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that no other team had a coach pull any double duties.
  9. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

    The question is how much of his job performance is due to him and how much of it is due to the Vikings having superior talent at almost every single position on the field? Hell, I could probably coach that team. I challenge you to name me one position where the Vikings do not have acceptable talent on the field, on both offense and defense.

    And, I'm not sure I understand the last question...
  10. Brady_12

    Brady_12 Rookie

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    #95 Jersey

    Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

    Maybe I'm missing something... You know that there was no attempt to retain Pees?
  11. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Rookie

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    Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

    I'm not saying the coaching is bad, but your logic is wrong. A->B does NOT imply B->A.

    Anyone who argued that the coaching staff is hurting the team is NOT arguing that talent cannot make up for bad coaching.

    Now with that said, it's not the coaching.
  12. R_T26

    R_T26 Banned

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    Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

    Well wheather its the coaching or talent, its the coach who picks the talent.
    Maybe we need to get back to drafting guys to be starters rather then "special team contributors".
  13. robertweathers

    robertweathers Rookie

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    Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

    Isn't that a HCs job? To identify needs, acquire talent and ensure that it not only performs but functions together as a unit with the other players? My perception of Brad Childress is that he did a nice job as OC with the Eagles, learned a few things about team building from Reid, Lauria and Banner, went to the Vikes and has done a nice job taking a post-Culpepper mess and four years later playing for the NFC Championship with steady growth and team success along the way.

    My assumption is that he is a good Xs and Os guy b/c he worked for Reid but I don't know for sure.

    I think their safeties are marginal but thats nit-picky. They are loaded everywhere. There is no denying that.

    Why are you digging at Brad Childress? I mean, I don't really like the guy much, but to take a team from 6-10 to 12-4 and the NFCCG is pretty damn good. His talent is performing and winning. What else is there to criticize?
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2010
  14. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

    Actually, Spielman is the one that's credited for the drafting there. And yes, I'm digging at Childress. He's not a very good coach and there has been proof of that over the years. He's simply inherited a loaded team. And, despite his rocky relationship with Favre to boot, his team is in the NFCCG precisely because of superior talent.
  15. Sicilian

    Sicilian On the Roster

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    Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

    In a way, this is a similar argument to the old, "The secondary isn't bad because the pass rush stinks," one.

    In reality, a good pass rush can make up for deficiencies in the secondary, but at the same time a great secondary can give the pass rush more time. Everything is symbiotic on a football team, including the impact of talent vs. the coaching staff.
  16. Box_O_Rocks

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    Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

    Do I think there was a coaching problem in NE? Yes, but one of inexperience rather than talent.

    Sometimes change is needed just for the new perspective to keep from getting stale - and it can come from either or both sides.

    O'Shea is a young coach who has primarily worked Special Teams in the NFL, though he did have some receivers experience at the college level. He was new to the NE offense - a pass first offense - and it only made sense to use a veteran WR coach from the personnel department to help him make the transition. Personnel development 101 in this case, no mystery.

    Bill Belichick.

    Seems like, as long as his veteran/youth mix at QB isn't too heavy towards youth.

    If you look around the league you'll find a number of two-hatted position and coordinator posts, and some head coaches carrying coordinator or position duties. In this case Billy was OC-in-training and Quaterback coach, and he had himself, O'Shea, and Waldron as first time position coaches - there was going to be a growth process there. Perhaps with a healthy Tommy Brady and Randy Moss things would have gone smoother... :confused2:

    BB had four first time position coaches, a coordinator-in-training, and he had two new coaches in from outside the organization - that's a lot of turnover. Added to the locker room turnover, and the injuries to key personnel (Brady, Moss, Mayo, Wilfork, Warren, Green, Morris, Taylor, Welker, Light, Neal, Kaczur, Aiken) and you have a mix that with any other team would have finished below .500 on the season. They got spanked by two playoff teams and embarrassed twice within the division, but they still won the division and made the playoffs despite all that went wrong or failed to go smoothly this season. The loss to Baltimore in the first round was painful, but it at least came at the right time to ensure BB ended the season on a mission - he doesn't appear to be overreacting, but change has already begun - what me worry? [​IMG]
  17. robertweathers

    robertweathers Rookie

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    Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

    Could all be true. I don't follow the Vikes as closely as the Pats. I'll take your word for it. I would venture to say that Childress and Speilman have a decent working relationship where they can discuss, debate and agree on which players are a fit for the system. If Speilman makes the pick, so be it.

    They had talent when he got there, but weren't loaded when they were 6-10. They've spent some money on FAs for sure and getting AP didn't hurt. But the players play for him and he just got a $5m a year extension so clearly Zygi thinks hes doing a good job.
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2010
  18. Synovia

    Synovia Rookie

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    Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

    Give an example of that in the modern NFL (and by Modern NFL, I mean the last 5 years, since the illegal contact rules changed)
  19. Synovia

    Synovia Rookie

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    Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

    Eh, they've been drafting High for a couple of years, so of course they have good talent. The issue with Childress is, that had Bret Favre not mysteriously showed up, they'd still be an 8-8 team with no QB. He has seriously neglected the most important position on the field, and then lucked into a pro-bowler.
  20. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    Re: For the crowd that thinks that the coordinators/coaching staff were the problem..

    The coordinators/coaching were the problem. How do I know? Because Belichick felt Pees wasn't working out, and he intimated that the situation with O'Brien wasn't optimal in terms of new ideas, communication. That doesn't necessarily mean O'Brien is bad, but it does mean Pees was not cutting it.

    What's your point about Childress? A lot of ratty teams made it to the championship game. Heck, some ratty teams like Chicago with Rex Grossman even made it to the Super Bowl. Don't ask me to explain how crap teams get so far. But I know this: crap teams don't win the Super Bowl (unless they have an incredible amount of luck, 2007, cough cough).
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