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For all the Frantz Joseph (and Stryker Sulak) fans

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by dryheat44, Jul 15, 2009.

  1. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

  2. Bring Back Antowain!

    Bring Back Antowain! Rookie

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    See I thought Joseph could make one hell of a SILB. Apparently Belichick and scouts across the league thought otherwise.

    Wouldn't make a bad training camp body at this point, especially considering Appleby is gone and McKenzie is out injured.
  3. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    Agreed. (10)
  4. Afterlifemobile-86

    Afterlifemobile-86 Rookie

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    Glad he got his degree to fall back on. I hope he gets a shot somewhere even if it's on a practice squad or the CFL. I was very surprised to see this, I thought he was a sure bet to make the Raiders roster.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFzk2vucbQ8
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2009
  5. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Sulak is pretty remarkable. How often is an actual draft pick waived before the start of camp? As if the Raiders' draft didn't look screwy already. :rolleyes:

    Sulak's not terribly explosive, but with zero camp fodder at OLB I might go for a waiver claim. As for Joseph, he seems like the classic ILB story: great guy, lousy athlete. I wish him well.
  6. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Trivial side note on Sulak: he was drafted #199 with a pick the Raiders got from the Patriots in the trade up for Ron Brace.
  7. pats_premi

    pats_premi Rookie

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    Does this mean Stryker Sulak didn't make any money because he was not signed to a contract even though he was drafted? If he didn't do anything wrong then I feel bad for the guy. Isn't the team who drafted him at least obligated to compensate him for reducing his chances of hooking up with another team as a undrafted free agent?
  8. Armchair Quarterback

    Armchair Quarterback Rookie

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    Raiders are a 4-3 team right. He would be too slow in a 4-3 but as a run stuffing 3-4 ILB and special teamer maybe . Then again he may just be another Freddie Roach type player who doesn't translate to the pro game. I wouldn't mind seeing the Pats put in a waiver claim.
  9. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'd be surprised if they did, per the recent Urban Meyer interview posted in the main forum, teams are going to incorporate more spread offense into their systems as they adjust to the shifts in the college talent pool. As good a player as Joseph was in college, he's just too heavy-legged to be much of a value in the face of the spread offenses.

    BB transitioned his offense as we saw in 2007. His 2008 draft began the transition of the defense:

    - Mayo 4.54/40
    - Guyton 4.47/40
    - Crable 4.61/40
    - Redd 4.56/40

    Two Round 1-3 draftees and two UDFA, all with good speed. Pass coverage needs speed and decent quickness, but adjusting to single wing/spread attacks by QB/TB hybrids needs speed for both phases. In the secondary BB has gone after three CBs in the past two drafts who are roughly the same player:

    Wheatley 5-10 187 4.37/40
    Wilhite 5-10 185 4.38/40
    Butler 5-10 183 4.41/40

    He drafted a hybrid S/CB in 2007, Meriweather 5-10 195 4.47, and tried him at CB before moving him back out to Safety. If Meriweather stays at SS (as I expect him too) then you could see three CB-CB/S hybrids playing 10-12 yds off the LOS with four speedy LBs ranging underneath them.

    Now compare Chung 5-11 212 4.49/40 and Sanders 5-11 214 4.65/40 and you see strong similarities. Sacks, FF, FR, PD, and TFL are fairly similar. Chung played "Rover" and that may have given him an edge in TT as he averaged 96/year over his four year Oregon career vs Sanders 80/year over his three year career. Sanders has 3 BK to his credit and came out after his junior year. Chung returned punts. BB went and got himself a slightly more athletic version of James Sanders as his first pick in 2009, he got similar numbers at a slightly higher level of competition, in a hybrid S/LB role. Chung started college at 16, so he may be academically more gifted.

    Should we think only of Sanders/Chung/Meriweather as competing directly for starting time? Why not consider them as a Nickel/Dime Safety trio who puts a CB/S hyrbrid and a S/LB hybrid in the box for 3rd and moderate/short situations where a pass or run is equally as likely from single wing/spread formations. Tank Williams is (or was) a fast S/LB hybrid. McGowan was 6' 190 4.47/40 FS in 2005, now he's 207, a little lighter than Sanders/Chung and a little heavier than Meriweather, his change of direction numbers say more S/LB than CB/S.

    BB has retooled his defense to be more responsive to spread attacks, and not just the Colts going three and four wide, but college spread attacks with hybrid QB/TBs. It should be considered that he retooled his offense first to beat that trend, and waited a bit longer to retool the defense because the offensive trends where going to drive defensive adjustments.

    Frantz Joseph looked like a good kid to consider as a UDFA/late pick going into the 2009 draft, but now he looks like a poor fit, I'm mildly surprised BB drafted Ty McKenzie.
  10. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    Box,

    A most cogent and thoughtful analysis... I have seen scouting reports than Ty Mckenzie ran some 4.65s, as welll as his Combine 4.76. He was a good coverage LB, and perhaps better at that than an in-the-box, SILB run-stuffer. So I assume hat ability plus his tenacity, counted for something as well.

    You should add:
    Adalius Thomas 6-2 270 @ 4.57/40 and
    Pierre Woods 6-5 250 4.65/40 too.

    That entire LB crew ranges from exceptionally rare speed, to just merely great speed; and the size of each LB is well above average too. ;)
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2009
  11. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    McKenzie reportedly got pulled on passing downs, I don't expect the chance to see him in preseason to get a feel for what he's capable of in pass defense.

    I have no records so I'll take your word on Thomas, Woods ran 4.75 for his Pro Day, but he had outstanding change of direction numbers which suggests his 10 split is very good.
  12. Mike the Brit

    Mike the Brit Minuteman Target PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Tyrone Mckenzie: 6'1", 243 lbs, 4.75 40

    Frantz Joseph: 6'1", 242 lbs, 4.83 40

    ;)

    Very interesting post, Box, but two thoughts. Not EVERY team is going to be going in a spread offense all the time -- think of the Giants. And the Patriots' priority has always been "stop the run". So that doesn't make the Ted Johnson role redundant -- even if such a player won't play on all downs. After all, they brought in the great Junior once again last season. I've no idea what his 40 time would be nowadays (embarrassing, I'd guess) but he still solidified things in the defense when he was on the field.

    So look: if the Patriots don't want The Kaiser, so be it -- they didn't want Conor Barwin either. They seem to have done OK so far. But obviously what appeal FJ has isn't based on size and speed. For my money, he's a player who hits hard, has good hands and is around the football more often than not. (And, of course, he has that great, great name.)
  13. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    OK, but don't stop there.

    Mckenzie: 27 reps, 32.5 vertical
    Joseph: 19 reps, 27.5 vertical

    If you're looking for a thumper, you want some strength and explosion in exchange for the quickness and coverage potential. Mckenzie isn't a terrific athlete, but Joseph is another clear cut below.
  14. Synovia

    Synovia Rookie

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    Except Bellichick has been saying for 2 or 3 years now that the NFL has changed and the passing game is way more important than the running game. The patriots are playing more nickle than base set now.

    Run defenders who can't stop the pass are a liability in today's NFL.
  15. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    Well, I wouldn't go so far as say "liability", but in the world of Bill Belichick, which demands you can do more than one thing (unless you can do that one thing really, really well), the rosters aren't large enough to accomodate such a player.

    Although in the sense of the offense audibling to a pass formation, I suppose "liability" is appropriate enough.

    I'm just happy to have something to discuss.
  16. Mike the Brit

    Mike the Brit Minuteman Target PatsFans.com Supporter

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    From what I can see, the Pats are indeed playing a lot of nickel and they have clearly been experimenting with the idea of a super-strong safety/light linebacker (Tank Williams) but versatility means having the players to line up against quite different offenses. If you were limited in your roster to 30 or so players, then you would have to decide one way or the otherr. As it is, a tough, slow linebacker is a useful complement, even if he comes out on such downs and the super-safety goes in.

    (Look, my Frantz Joseph love isn't supposed to be rational. Sure, he's not a workout warrior (wonder why the Raiders signed him, then!) but he is athletic in the important sense of having the quick reactions and good hands needed to make interceptions, even if you don't want him one-on-one with a wide receiver.)
  17. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    (You do realize you've never needed to explain your rationality, or lack thereof, to us? ;) ) On a football purist level Frantz Joseph is an attractive prospect, but in the 'all defenses to all offenses' Belichickian model, he loses a great deal of his potential. In light of this discussion McKenzie appears to be a borderline selection and was taken with a borderline draft pick, the blend of production, athleticism, and potential had pretty much been exausted at that point, only the TCU kid the Ravens took in the fifth appealed to me more (if memory serves **sigh**).

    If Joseph is available for a test drive on the Practice Squad during the season, he may get an extended look, but on the eve of Training Camp with what might be the implementation of the next stage in defensive flexibility, I don't see it happening.
  18. MVPatsfan13

    MVPatsfan13 Rookie

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    Threads like this are the ones that I come to patsfans for...Thanks for the good read while we wait till TC
  19. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Just because they didn't draft Connor Barwin doesn't mean they didn't want him. It just means that he wasn't rated as highly by them as the other players they drafted ahead of him.
  20. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Let it go Db, I'm confident Connor will help our draftnik "legacy" soon enough, in the meantime he can help Peyton with some issues.

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