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Football fans support players over owners, poll shows.


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But the players are "entitled" to make seeing the documents a prerequisite for accepting any deal, just like the owners are entitled to ask for an addition $1 billion taken off the top of total revenues.

Yup, these are negotiations. They are entitled to ask the owners to make the planet spin backward too. Of course, I'm not sure I'd really use the word "entitled" like you do as that gives the wrong connotation.

So the question is, in your estimation, is the principle of not having to show their employees their financial information worth scuttling the negotiations over?

This is indeed a question first for the players (who made it a non-negotiable item) and then the owners (who decided that it was). So why did the players do this? They've never yet had this information and have made deals in the past with the NFL. Outside of football in other sports, it is customary to make deals without this type of detailed information. In the business world, it is a rare exception where employees get shown the business financials when they are agreeing to a contract.

So what advantage will the players reap from this knowledge? Well, go back to my original post and the (my) answer is there. So we're back to where we started. Both sides want money and haven't yet agreed on how to split it up. It really is (pretty much) that simple when all is said and done.
 
I was speaking from the owner's perspective. They wanted out of the deal mostly because they wanted a bigger cut of the pie than they got. Since they didn't get it, they "lost" it. Hopefully it makes more sense now.


You can call it "lost money," and the owners can call it "lost money," but the truth is that the only real "lost money" is that the owners agreed to with Direct TV, as they were obligated under the CBA to maximize profits that are shared with the players and rather than do that they made a deal where the owners were paid more if there was NO FOOTBALL, which is as disgraceful and dishonest as it gets. Given that dishonesty there is no way the players should ever agree to any deal without seeing the books.

The owners don't own football they just think they do, the judge should make it clear to the owners and players alike that the game is bigger than all of them and force them into binding arbitration and tell the owners that any who don't agree to it to sell their franchises to those who will abide by it.
 
This is indeed a question first for the players (who made it a non-negotiable item) and then the owners (who decided that it was). So why did the players do this?
The owners made the specific claim that they need more money than they were given in the previous CBA for the health of their franchises and the health of the league, and thus the health of the joint enterprise that they are engaged in with the players.

The players, reasonably enough, insist that the owners prove that claim. That is where demand for the owner's books comes in.
 
the judge should ... force them into binding arbitration and tell the owners that any who don't agree to it to sell their franchises to those who will abide by it.

Ignoring the rant and focusing on binding arbitration, I think the owners would welcome such a judicial ruling, much better than having purely a legal guy, the judge, deciding the outcomes. They did OK recently using a professional arbitrator even though the arbitrator justifiably fined them a few million$.
 
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Yup, these are negotiations. They are entitled to ask the owners to make the planet spin backward too. Of course, I'm not sure I'd really use the word "entitled" like you do as that gives the wrong connotation.

This is indeed a question first for the players (who made it a non-negotiable item) and then the owners (who decided that it was). So why did the players do this? They've never yet had this information and have made deals in the past with the NFL. Outside of football in other sports, it is customary to make deals without this type of detailed information. In the business world, it is a rare exception where employees get shown the business financials when they are agreeing to a contract.

So what advantage will the players reap from this knowledge? Well, go back to my original post and the (my) answer is there. So we're back to where we started. Both sides want money and haven't yet agreed on how to split it up. It really is (pretty much) that simple when all is said and done.

The financial disclosure could hardly be called non-negotiable considering that the NFLPA had standing offers of a continuation of the present CBA, or a flat 50-50 split of unadjusted Total Revenue, neither of which were acceptable to ownership. The union's request for financial disclosure was only insisted upon if the league wanted to increase the off-the-top deduction from Total Revenue, or put a cap on the amount of revenue the players would get a share of, as in the owners' 11th hour counter-proposal.

The NFL has never requested the owners' financial records before because they have never been asked to accept a smaller share before. The CBA extensions in 96 and 98 only cosmetically changed the structure of the landmark 93 settlement. In 2003, with new, non-shared revenue streams comprising an annually growing portion of the league's total revenues, Upshaw went into negotiations with the crucial lone goal of tying the players' compensation to a share of all revenues, not just the shared TV deals, gate, and league-wide sponsorships. Whatever agreement is ultimately come to, this CBA extension will almost certainly end up being the players' first "loss," and the NFLPA feels they need to be able to sell its necessity to the players to get them to accept that they're not getting a raw deal.

I think what the owners don't get is that the mistrust the players feel toward them is no stunt or negotiating tactic. I think the owners need to consider compromising on the financial disclosure, because I think that De Maurice Smith knows he'll lost his constituency if tries to make any deal that's not a clear-cut W for the players without it. They might actually be surprised at how ready to deal the union is after winning that one non-monetary concession, which would allow them to save face and get the players back with their teams, like everybody wants.

(Of course, that's assuming that there's nothing genuinely inflammatory that would be revealed in the owners' financial dealings.)

As for the other sports -- none of them have a hard salary cap, and I don't believe their compensation is as closely tied to league revenue. If the NFL didn't have a salary cap artificially reducing the players' market value, they wouldn't need to worry about a guaranteed share of the league's revenues.

And as for elsewhere in the business world -- considering that the combination of employees of publicly traded companies and public-sector workers easily makes up more than half of the workforce, and that public-sector workers are fare more likely to be in trade unions, I would imagine that most collective bargaining agreements are negotiated with the unions privy to far more of the employers' financial records than in the NFL. Of course, this is entirely besides the point, because I can't think of any other situation in which the employees total annual compensation is a percentage of their employers' revenue, with expenses deducted.
 
The players are being asked to give up something that they had previously gained and that they have gotten used to having.

Anyone interested in the psychology of the situation from the players point of view might Google "Endowment Effect."
 
Please its not really about that. They are just losing that as a threat. They are more than happy to accept that as long as their pay continues to grow at the same rates. It was the only way they could get hand and I find it dirty. To me I read as a sign that the owners is position is right and the players are grasping at anything to keep a foothold and threatening the way the league operates is IMO dirty. The owners are being dirty with the money that comes in but not with the sport itself. I get the greedy money grab but dont drag what I am really interested in into the equation which is what the players have done and thus they have lost me a little.

Well yeah, that's exactly it. They're willing cede a number of their rights as workers in exchange for certain guarantees. You're acting like it's underhanded of them to make their concessions condition on those guarantees, but why is that the case? If the owners are not willing to meet those guarantees, then they will rightly sue them under antitrust provisions.
 
Well yeah, that's exactly it. They're willing cede a number of their rights as workers in exchange for certain guarantees. You're acting like it's underhanded of them to make their concessions condition on those guarantees, but why is that the case? If the owners are not willing to meet those guarantees, then they will rightly sue them under antitrust provisions.

All I am saying is that I dont think the conditions at the NFL workplace have sunk to a level worthy of suing over. I am not saying they should cave every point in place of a suit just that they should be negotiating and not suing. Maybe if they had been locked out for longer than negative 6 hours I could understand.
 
All I am saying is that I dont think the conditions at the NFL workplace have sunk to a level worthy of suing over. I am not saying they should cave every point in place of a suit just that they should be negotiating and not suing. Maybe if they had been locked out for longer than negative 6 hours I could understand.



They had a deadline to decertify and the owners knew that and didn't make any effort to bargain in good faith because they wanted a lockout. The owners are responsible for this situation, not the players.
 
The owners made the specific claim that they need more money than they were given in the previous CBA for the health of their franchises and the health of the league, and thus the health of the joint enterprise that they are engaged in with the players.

The players, reasonably enough, insist that the owners prove that claim. That is where demand for the owner's books comes in.

Yup, this is Standard Operating Procedure in negotiations. Owners will continue to make claims like this and unions will continue to ask to see the books and owners will continue to decline the request.

It still comes down to both sides want more of the money. Everything else is pretty much spin.
 
The financial disclosure could hardly be called non-negotiable considering that the NFLPA had standing offers of a continuation of the present CBA, or a flat 50-50 split of unadjusted Total Revenue, neither of which were acceptable to ownership.

I stand corrected. The players were perfectly willing to not look at the books if the owners would just give them the amount of money they wanted. No big surprise there. ;)
 
I stand corrected. The players were perfectly willing to not look at the books if the owners would just give them the amount of money they wanted. No big surprise there. ;)


And the players said they would consider a reduction if the owners could show it was warranted. The players have been willing to deal all along but the owners have been steadfast in wanting to crush them and take a much bigger share. The owners were so disinterested in dealing they didn't even have owners who could make a deal in the room when they were supposedly negotiating.
 
They had a deadline to decertify and the owners knew that and didn't make any effort to bargain in good faith because they wanted a lockout. The owners are responsible for this situation, not the players.

That deadline was flexible had the union asked for another extension to counter the owners latest offer...which was actually a good offer that only lacked some form of true up on future revenue growth. Had they done that and the owners refused an extension, then the suit still could have been filed on Friday and the owners would have been responsible for negotiations ending. The union was growing impatient to play their lone card because the lawyers have them convinced it's an unbeatable hand. I don't think that is the concensus among legal or labor law experts however. And if they misplayed their hand they are toast. And it could even be if they didn't misplay it the game and the league as we know it and the rank and file are destined to become toast as a result...
 
That deadline was flexible had the union asked for another extension to counter the owners latest offer...which was actually a good offer that only lacked some form of true up on future revenue growth. Had they done that and the owners refused an extension, then the suit still could have been filed on Friday and the owners would have been responsible for negotiations ending. The union was growing impatient to play their lone card because the lawyers have them convinced it's an unbeatable hand. I don't think that is the concensus among legal or labor law experts however. And if they misplayed their hand they are toast. And it could even be if they didn't misplay it the game and the league as we know it and the rank and file are destined to become toast as a result...


My understanding was that they had essentially run out of time and had to file for decertification but I could be wrong, however given that the owners weren't negotiating seriously anyways it is kind of a moot point. I do agree with you that if the court sides with the owners thee players are screwed and the owners will clearly abuse them as much as they possibly can, and although it won't happen because the players won't be able to stick together I would hope the players in that instance refuse to make any concessions whatsoever and only agree to re-up the last CBA. As much as I would hate losing football I would rather see the players stay locked out as long as they have to rather than be bullied by the owners.

I think you said i was biased in a prior post and i agree that at this point i am 100% biased in favor of the players. I am completely disgusted at the actions of the owners and their complete disdain for the players and communities who have supported them for decades. The owners are willing to cause even greater economic hardship for communities already struggling in a bad economy so they can reap even greater profits than they already are, and i'm appalled by that.
 
My understanding was that they had essentially run out of time and had to file for decertification but I could be wrong, however given that the owners weren't negotiating seriously anyways it is kind of a moot point. I do agree with you that if the court sides with the owners thee players are screwed and the owners will clearly abuse them as much as they possibly can, and although it won't happen because the players won't be able to stick together I would hope the players in that instance refuse to make any concessions whatsoever and only agree to re-up the last CBA. As much as I would hate losing football I would rather see the players stay locked out as long as they have to rather than be bullied by the owners.

I think you said i was biased in a prior post and i agree that at this point i am 100% biased in favor of the players. I am completely disgusted at the actions of the owners and their complete disdain for the players and communities who have supported them for decades. The owners are willing to cause even greater economic hardship for communities already struggling in a bad economy so they can reap even greater profits than they already are, and i'm appalled by that.

CBA scheduled to end at midnight on Friday

Owners give offer at 1 pm.

Owners and NFLPA scheduled to meet at 3:30 pm, allowing players to read offer

Owners show up 20 minutes late, at 3:50 pm

NFLPA negotiators have 4 pm deadline for decertification

NFLPA negotiators get 1 hour extension by contacting appropriate people

NFLPA negotiators turn down offer, agree to extension if owners' books opened

Owners don't agree

NFLPA decertifies just after 5pm

Owners lockout players at midnight
 
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CBA scheduled to end at midnight on Friday

Owners give offer at 1 pm.

Owners and NFLPA scheduled to meet at 3:30 pm, allowing players to read offer

Owners show up 20 minutes late, at 3:50 pm

NFLPA negotiators have 4 pm deadline for decertification

NFLPA negotiators get 1 hour extension by contacting appropriate people

NFLPA negotiators turn down offer, agree to extension if owners' books opened

Owners don't agree

NFLPA decertifies just after 5pm

Owners lockout players at midnight




The owners show up 20 minutes late knowing the players only have until 4 pm, leaving the players 10 minutes to make a decision?



Given all that has gone down it is hard to take the owners seriously as it would be almost impossible to operate in worse faith. I would have loved to see a deal done that kept the basic systems currently in place going forward but I don't blame the players one bit for decertifying as the owners really left them no choice, now i think the players need to end the pretense they are a union and take it as far as they have to in the courts, as the owners are never going to bargain in good faith unless forced to by the courts.


I would rather have no football this year than see the players lose in court.
 
That deadline was flexible had the union asked for another extension to counter the owners latest offer...which was actually a good offer that only lacked some form of true up on future revenue growth. Had they done that and the owners refused an extension, then the suit still could have been filed on Friday and the owners would have been responsible for negotiations ending. The union was growing impatient to play their lone card because the lawyers have them convinced it's an unbeatable hand. I don't think that is the concensus among legal or labor law experts however. And if they misplayed their hand they are toast. And it could even be if they didn't misplay it the game and the league as we know it and the rank and file are destined to become toast as a result...

The league had been dragging their feet during the weeklong extension, and didn't make a counter-offer until four hours before the NFLPA's deadline to decertify, and this counter-offer didn't make any sort of even perfunctory gesture toward compromising on financial disclosure. The union reps felt the 11th hour offer did not contain any serious attempt to address the concerns the players had been voicing over the past week.

It is very much in the players' interests to decertify earlier rather than later, as the judicial process moves slowly, and the more time for rulings and appeals before the season should start, the better.
 
The owners show up 20 minutes late knowing the players only have until 4 pm, leaving the players 10 minutes to make a decision?...

It's in the Silver column. The column is biased in that it was written from the perspective of the players, but I don't believe any of the factual information has been disproved or disputed.

In receiving permission to decertify during votes with individual teams over the past eight months, the union had stated it would do so no later than eight hours before the CBA’s expiration – meaning it had to initiate the action by 4 p.m. The league, Atallah said, was aware of this, but commissioner Roger Goodell and his fellow negotiators showed up 20 minutes late to a scheduled 3:30 meeting.

Business matter became personal for union - NFL - Yahoo! Sports
 
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It's in the Silver column. The column is biased in that it was written from the perspective of the players, but I don't believe any of the factual information has been disproved or disputed.



Business matter became personal for union - NFL - Yahoo! Sports



Given the owners behavior all the way leading up to that point I think the players knew that they had no choice because the owners weren't going to bargain in any kind of good faith. The owners had 2 years in which they could have made serious efforts to come up with a deal that worked for all but they never wanted that kind of deal and really wanted to crush the players and force a deal on them that was essentially their shopping list, they wanted a lockout and did everything in their power to get just that. Now it will come down to the draw of judges and the question of how far either side will push it if they lose. If it ever got to the Supremes the players are toast because this Supreme Court is the most pro big business in history and will always side with ownership. I seriously doubt it goes that far and i will be interested to see how far the owners push it if they lose. From what i can tell they have until the end of May or early June to get a deal done without disrupting the season, any further and it will be impossible to have free agency and any kind of camps to get players ready, and trying to go on anything less than 2-3 weeks of preparation would seriously jeopardize player health.
 
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