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Florio: The NFL could still win in Appellate Court, depending on who the judges are


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Soul_Survivor88

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I'm really glad Berman did what was right and overturned Brady's suspension. But if I were Brady, I might still be concerned with the NFL bringing this to an appellate court.

No matter how slim their chances for winning might be, Mike Florio thinks the NFL could still prevail in upper courts, depending on who the judges are and their political backgrounds.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/09/03/nfl-could-win-brady-appeal/

Before the district court, it was an all-or-nothing argument to one judge and one judge only. On appeal, it’s a matter of persuading two of three judges.

The political backgrounds of those judges will be critical to the final ruling. If two of them were appointed by Republican presidents, chances are that they will be more inclined to agree with management. If, like Judge Berman, two of the judges were appointed by Democratic presidents, they could be inclined to agree with labor.

Indeed, there’s a good chance that one or more of the judges will have been involved with similar cases in the past, with their positions regarding the enforcement of arbitration agreements already firmly established, one way or the other.

In the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit in Richmond, where I handled multiple cases while practicing law, the parties don’t even know who the judges are until the morning of the oral arguments. Ultimately, the outcome could hinge on which three judges are assigned to the case. Or, more accurately, which two judges get the assignment.
 
Nope. Said it yesterday that no matter how Berman ruled, it wouldn't get overturned on appeal. He didn't even have to base his judgment on anything other than procedural grounds, and a procedural judgment just won't get thrown out. Not going to happen, because the punishment was overturned on black-and-white facts that aren't even disputed by the NFL.

Or, as Daniel Wallach (who's been on-point throughout, and even predicted the exact grounds on which Berman would overturn last week) put it:

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This isn't getting overturned. Haters are just going to have to deal with it.
 
He has to write that, because he writes about "all possibilities" minutiae. Most of the other "legal analysts" take a similar approach. Also, Florio was able to dash it off quickly and get another piece of content for his site.
 
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but:
  • At the appellate level there's no binding precedent except what comes from the SCOTUS, correct?
  • Also, appellate courts don't feel the same self-imposed pressure for stare decisis as the SCOTUS, correct?
  • The main SCOTUS case anybody worries about is Garvey.
  • Thus, the appellate court can do whatever it thinks is correct and just, with the only major limitation being Garvey.
 
There is no way this gets overturned on appeal. The notice issue is fundamental black letter law. Those citations that Berman cited are all Second Circuit cases.The NFL would have to convince the Second Circuit to throw out all those precedents and find that employer can discipline a worker without giving proper notice. And that, my friends, is never going to happen.
 
He's just injecting politics where it isn't. Berman didn't vote for "management.". Had Brady tried to claim that he could skip four games and was still owed his salary for the games then Berman would have voted "for management."

He voted the NFL must follow the CBA and they didn't.
 
I don't see what's in this appeal for the NFL -- other than they just want to win at all costs.

If the whole thing is overturned, the PR hit is bad because it says the NFL can do anything they want in their kangaroo court.

If the thing is sent back to Berman and he orders a new appeal, all the dirty laundry in the Wells report come out -- more bad PR.

If they lose -- well, that's just bad PR.


It seems to me the NFL set this up so they could stack every card in the deck in their favor to win this thing.

-- they released false information
-- they released the prosecutorial Wells Report to the public
-- they chose a biased arbitrator
-- they forum shopped before the players could appeal

After lining everything up, they still lost.

Now neither the facts or the law on their side. Think they can win?
 
Anything is possible with the NFL...i trust them like i trust whitey bulger
 
Even if the case were overturned (and I don't think it will be), the Judge set this up to run through multiple appeals. It takes one issue to vacate the award. All of Brady's issues have to be denied to confirm his suspension.

It was no accident that the Judge spelled out all of the issues he had not addressed in his ruling. A reversal sends the case back with direction to review the other issues. The Judge could simply pick one more and again vacate the award, repeating the 6 or 8 month cycle with each individual issue. There was method to that approach, and it was not to help the NFL.
 
In an environment where the rules and bias leans STRONGLY in favor of the League, they were so inept and corrupt that they not only blew that huge advantage they were given, they got CRUSHED, ***** slapped, ass hurt, etc. That is how badly the NFL screwed up their OWN procedures and policies by the time it got to Berman's court. I would still like to know how Pash and Welles aren't having to go before their local Bar Association for malpractice and ethical issues.

There have been several people who have more knowledge than most who have made good cases for the NFL to likely lose their appeal. Also it seems those "experts" who still are preaching the league line, are using the same tired reasons they counted on with Berman. (Garvey, "republican judges", section 46) Not gonna happen. Berman crafted his decision specifically to be bulletproof to appeal.

Now it is likely that one or more of the judges selected to be on the appeals panel will be more conservative than Berman, but they aren't going to be brain dead ideologues who will ignore the solid precedents and "black letter law" outlined in Berman's decision. It's like these so called legal experts seem to think that if a republican president nominated a judge, the guy is an automaton who will vote as an extreme conservative on every issue and simply ignore facts and the law. IDIOTS who get paid to speak stupidly. And it pisses me off that if I had their job, and worked REALLY hard at it, I could make myself sound just as stupid. ;)
 
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but:
  • At the appellate level there's no binding precedent except what comes from the SCOTUS, correct?
  • Also, appellate courts don't feel the same self-imposed pressure for stare decisis as the SCOTUS, correct?
  • The main SCOTUS case anybody worries about is Garvey.
  • Thus, the appellate court can do whatever it thinks is correct and just, with the only major limitation being Garvey.
In an environment where the rules and bias leans STRONGLY in favor of the League, they were so inept and corrupt that they not only blew that huge advantage they were given, they got CRUSHED, ***** slapped, ass hurt, etc. That is how badly the NFL screwed up their OWN procedures and policies by the time it got to Berman's court. I would still like to know how Pash and Welles aren't having to go before their local Bar Association for malpractice and ethical issues.

There have been several people who have more knowledge than most who have made good cases for the NFL to likely lose their appeal. Also it seems those "experts" who still are preaching the league line, are using the same tired reasons they counted on with Berman. (Garvey, "republican judges", section 46) Not gonna happen. Berman crafted his decision specifically to be bulletproof to appeal.

Now it is likely that one or more of the judges selected to be on the appeals panel will be more conservative than Berman, but they aren't going to be brain dead ideologues who will ignore the solid precedents and "black letter law" outlined in Berman's decision. It's like these so called legal experts seem to think that if a republican president nominated a judge, the guy is an automaton who will vote as an extreme conservative on every issue and simply ignore facts and the law. IDIOTS who get paid to speak stupidly. And it pisses me off that if I had their job, and worked REALLY hard at it, I could make myself sound just as stupid. ;)
I was going to start a separate thread about pash and Wells, but I'm too lazy to do it. Ken, in reference to your comment above, since I have read (and enjoyed)plenty of your posts about football Xs and Os, allow me to return the favor a bit on the legal side.
The only way they can face a malpractice case is if the NFL Sues them, and since pash is an employee, And not an independent contractor, so to speak like Wells, I'm not sure they can even do that to him. In either event, that is not going to happen. In terms of an ethics violation, someone would have to file a complaint. That could either be the NFL or some other individual, including the union, Who has knowledge that an ethical violation occurred. However, the ethics violation has to be spelled out in the states's Professional conduct rules and not just based on shoddy work. again, not likely to happen.
However, I really think pash and to a somewhat lesser extent, Wells, are really the ones to blame for this whole mess. Sometimes a lawyer has to put his foot down and just tell his client, cut it out and stop it. That never happened here.
The judges decision dropped a lot of footnotes featuring pash and Wells. In doing so Berman really unloaded on those two.You rarely see that in a judicial opinion because judges tend to let attorneys down easy out of professional courtesy.
I thought the footnote about Wells claiming the attorney-client privilege was especially telling. Berman seemed almost to be mocking them. It is mind-boggling that Wells would claim the attorney-client privilege in my opinion. Once you do that, you have acknowledged the relationship is one of attorney and client, and not independent. Sounds pretty obvious, right? Well it is, and that's why Berman dropped the footnote ... A literal translation would be: Can you believe this ****?
A few other points. When Berman said the other day he had not yet decided, I knew he was BSing. 40 page decisions do not write themselves in a day or two. I guarantee you that he had that decision pretty much all teed up at that point. Yes, he was hoping the parties would settle, but every judge wants every civil case to settle (not talking about criminal cases. ) The efforts that Berman made in this case to get the parties to settle is not unusual by any stretch, and to the contrary, happens all the time.
People are talking about the Brady case setting precedent. It really doesn't. Rather, it simply continues the line of precedent that the Second Circuit and Indeed all other Federal Circuit courts follow, regarding the notice issue. Those long string citations in Burmans decision are undoubtedly on his computer or more likely his law clerks computer and they simply cut and pasted. That is why the NFL has no chance on appeal. There's no way the Second Circuit is going to retreat from that issue. As one other poster mentioned a couple of weeks ago, The precedents dealing with notice not only apply to superstars like Brady, but also the rank-and-file union members on the factory floor. The real value of that decision, if the NFL wasn't so dense, would be to instruct the NFL what it needs to do in order to get its house in order on the labor discipline front. It really lays out a roadmap for the NFL to follow in terms of what you can and should do going forward to discipline players.However, no one from the NFL seems to be listening. And That gets back to my point about pash not doing his job.
 
Lester Munson strongly believes the NFL will win on appeal. Which means they have absolutely no shot.
 
Ya, I guess technically it could still be overturned, just like a meteor could hit a room in 345 Park Avenue that ****dell, pash, vincent, kensil and gardi were in.
 
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Adam Schefter just said on SC the NFL's appeal case could take 2 years and that legal experts give NFL very little chance to win it.
Oh so he's using Munson as his source? :D
 
Wasn't sure where to post this, but I heard a Huffington Post legal analyst on CBS radio and she mentioned an odd point. The letter from Vincent says specifically that Brady is suspended for the first four games of this season. If the NFL wins the appeal and the suspension is reinstated, isn't it moot at that point, assuming they can't finish this in the next six weeks? Can the league revisit the penalty or is that too close to Rice? I know the union is still interested in maintaining Berman's decision but how much could this really affect Brady?
 
I'm really glad Berman did what was right and overturned Brady's suspension. But if I were Brady, I might still be concerned with the NFL bringing this to an appellate court.

No matter how slim their chances for winning might be, Mike Florio thinks the NFL could still prevail in upper courts, depending on who the judges are and their political backgrounds.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/09/03/nfl-could-win-brady-appeal/
So could Aaron Hernandez.
 
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