Welcome to PatsFans.com

FLDS: Texas court fight heats up

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by weswelker#83, May 25, 2008.

  1. weswelker#83

    weswelker#83 Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2007
    Messages:
    4,535
    Likes Received:
    8
    Ratings:
    +8 / 0 / -0


    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...gamists_25tex.ART.State.Edition2.467ff56.html





    http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9361767
    [​IMG]
    Last edited: May 25, 2008
  2. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2008
    Messages:
    5,271
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    Nothing wrong with being taught the government is your enemy. It certainly acts as though it were the enemy of the American people.

    And what proof do you have that female is 12? Just the word of the prosecutor...who just got b!tch slapped by the supreme court...after all, a prosecutor would never lie.
    Nope, not a single time, not ever.
    Bullcrap.
  3. weswelker#83

    weswelker#83 Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2007
    Messages:
    4,535
    Likes Received:
    8
    Ratings:
    +8 / 0 / -0

    I didn't know you were onto conspiracy stories ...How ironic ! :rocker:
  4. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2008
    Messages:
    5,271
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    Who said I was into conspiracy stories?

    Here's some evidence for you...the price of gas is at record highs, right? Exxon gets big tax breaks, right? We can't drill for oil in our own country, but the politicians want more oil to be sent in from SA.

    That's acting like an enemy of the people, don't you think?

    Here's another one: the government approved the merger of Exxon and Mobil in record time. But it's been something like a third of a year or more and they still haven't approved the merger of Sirius and XM. Oddly enough, terrestrial radio has a fairly large lobby that has some funds to spread around. Satellite radio doesn't. Exxon and Mobil did.

    Exxon and Mobil merging allowed the price of gas to be fixed a little higher...what damage will merging two satellite radio corps do?
  5. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    40,856
    Likes Received:
    90
    Ratings:
    +151 / 3 / -19

    Thought from the beginning, that this case would go nowhere.. see the Manhattan Beach case that went nowhere on scant evidence.. as a former child welfare worker it appears that there was a rush to judgement, and to take all the children and spread them across Texas was flat out wrong.. the are a lot of subtleties in this case as well as lot of legal procedures, and felt from the get go that they would win this case on appeal.
  6. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2008
    Messages:
    5,271
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    :rocker:

    I know it's probably going to kill you that I think that was a good post, but I still do.
  7. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2007
    Messages:
    8,851
    Likes Received:
    34
    Ratings:
    +39 / 2 / -0

    What exactly does any of that have to do with this?
  8. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2008
    Messages:
    5,271
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    Wes' pull quote about the people who'd been taught from the cradle that government was the enemy.
  9. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2007
    Messages:
    8,851
    Likes Received:
    34
    Ratings:
    +39 / 2 / -0

    Your talking about deregulation and oligopolies. The smaller the size and scope of government, the more of that you'll see.
  10. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    17,652
    Likes Received:
    113
    Ratings:
    +142 / 1 / -4

    a.paul, I recall you defended a friend who was accused of abusing his daughters, and now you're defending a sect where there's a a lot of evidence of child abuse (including broken bones, evidence that girls had babies prior to the age of consent, etc.). What is your view of child abuse, and how do you stop it if you don't trust government? Also, does your distrust of government towards child abusers also extend to distrust of government towards, say, Arabs or illegal immigrants? Do you trust the government when it arrests so-called illegal immigrants? Or, when it comes to human rights, are there any other groups besides child abusers who you think are victims of government? Frankly, I find your stand on this matter disturbing.
    Last edited: May 26, 2008
  11. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    40,856
    Likes Received:
    90
    Ratings:
    +151 / 3 / -19

    Let me pose this to you, is every child being abused?? Is every child in danger?? we do not know this, so every case has to be individualized.. personally do not like it and think something should happen here, but to violate the due process rights of parents in the process will render this effort useless. You cannot take a whole group of people and judge them for what happens to some of them . Double jeopardy will probably prohibit them from going after them again for individual cases..unless there is a reoccurance..

    I suspect there will be some kind of deal, the kids will be returned, however there will be some type of monitoring/supervision of the situation and they will loose their clandestine life forever, probably move on to Colorado or Utah.

    The shame of this whole thing was they took the kids put them into a stadium, then they spread them out all over texas in foster homes and institutions.. there is no amount of services that can help them adjust from their insulated world to this world. I shudder to think of those kids who were not abused, but lumped together for the sake of expediency and immersed into a totally foreign way of living their lives..

    The better way to have proceeded was to remove all the adults from the compound, allow investigators, social workers and child care folk into the compound and then start to sort it out.. Put all the adults in the stadium and then start to let the non abusers back under supervision.. but pretty confident that the law will not allow this.

    IMO Texas has created a big mess, pretty much like the mess that was created in Waco.. lessons have been learned, but not operationalized in these type of situations.
  12. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    17,652
    Likes Received:
    113
    Ratings:
    +142 / 1 / -4

    GJAJ, I have only read MSM articles on the sect, so I may not know the whole story. But the cult has the money to hire the top lawyers, they have a don't tell strategy that thwarts the authority, and they have had known child abusers living among them. In addition, I believe there's a lot of evidence that children below the age of consent had children, but the problem is identifying the father of their children. The sect appears to sanction abuse and certainly the oppression of girls and women. And there are an alarming number of broken bones among sect chldren. As far as the authorities handling of it, it seems to me that if they believed there was abuse going on they had to act. They just did not know that they would be up against such a corrupt entity. I do agree they should have handled the kids differently, but the law does probably limit their options.
    Last edited: May 26, 2008
  13. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    40,856
    Likes Received:
    90
    Ratings:
    +151 / 3 / -19

    They did have to act, but do not agree with what they did.. the whole situation could have been handled much differently than it did, and in such a way to protect the due process rights of the parents while protecting the children.. this case will get blown out of the water much like Manhattan Beach Day Care.. lessons have been learned..
  14. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2008
    Messages:
    5,271
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    Which stand on which matter? That I agree with the appeals court in texas that said this (reuters story):
    See, I have a problem with the government sending heavily armed shock troops into someone's home unless they're damn sure of what's going on.
    You and I don't know what was going on there. And according to the appeals court, neither did the SWAT team they sent in.
  15. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2008
    Messages:
    5,271
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    And how did we get from a SWAT team essentially kidnapping children to arresting illegal immigrants? How is that even relevant?

    But again, which stand on which matter do you find so disturbing?
  16. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    17,652
    Likes Received:
    113
    Ratings:
    +142 / 1 / -4

    a.paul, you said this, "And what proof do you have that female is 12? Just the word of the prosecutor..." I don't think it's that difficult to tell the age of child, certainly a 12 year old v. someone who is the age of consent. Also, I'm surprised you're taking the side of suspected child abusers over the side of those who want to prevent further child abuse. Would you do the same for illegal immigrants and suspected terrrorists? I'm just pointing out that you seem to have a soft sot for suspected child abusers, such as your "friend" who abused his two daughters or, if I recall correctly, who raised two daughters who lied about him from your point of view. What other groups do you have soft spot for?
  17. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2008
    Messages:
    5,271
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    So you're going to tell me with a straight face that from that picture with the blanked out face you can tell that girl is 12, 14 or 19?

    I didn't say abuse might not be happening. What I said was we only had the prosecutors word that that girl was twelve--and prosecutors lie all the time. I saw a thing the other night where they tried to get a confession from a guy by actually going to the store and buying a bra and a t-shirt, ripping them up, putting them in evidence bags, and putting some blank paper in a folder marked DNA and then browbeating him with it for about 12 hours.


    And that other thing, it wasn't just my point of view. I heard the answering machine tape where one of the girls actually said if he didn't do what they wanted this was the story they were going to come up with to ruin his life. The judge said it wasn't admissible as evidence, which the appeals court said was an error on the judge's part, but not one serious enough to grant a new trial...yeah...so evidence in the "victims" own words that she was going to make up a story wouldn't have changed the outcome of the case?

    But in all seriousness, Patters--I've seen (and been a victim of) how you operate. You post these little things about people, so you're able to call them racists without actually saying it. If you're about to start trying to say I'm some kind of NAMBLA freak or something--get over it, and get over it now.

    One can believe--as the appeals court in Texas did--that "the government" overstepped it's authority without being in favor of abusing kids. Or anyone else.

    So seriously--get over that and get over it now--I'm asking you nicely.
  18. weswelker#83

    weswelker#83 Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2007
    Messages:
    4,535
    Likes Received:
    8
    Ratings:
    +8 / 0 / -0


    Another interesting observation ! :)

    You know islam allows to maary 4 wifes, i wonder if paul would have a soft spot for them . Allah akbar .;)
  19. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2008
    Messages:
    5,271
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    Good God no. I don't even want one wife, thanks.

    Although...apparently the way they treat the women is a lot different over there, maybe it wouldn't be so bad.



    Go ahead, wes, my little friend! Pile on! See if I help you get a thread into the Google top 50 again! :D:p
  20. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    17,652
    Likes Received:
    113
    Ratings:
    +142 / 1 / -4

    All I want to do, a.paul, is challenge you to be consistent in your thinking. I think you apply a different standard to suspected child abusers than you do to some other groups. I'm not against your essentially liberal stand with regard to the polygamist church. If I thought your point was about freedom and privacy, we would be having a different discussion. But, your point is clearly about dishonest prosecutors. That's okay, too, but I suspect you don't raise the issue of dishonest prosecutors when it comes to cases against illegal immigrants and suspected terrorists. So, I find that inconsistent. And, I am certainly not against you advocating for a minority I oppose (such as a polygamist cult). God knows, if it wasn't for advocates of unpopular causes, things like interracial marriage and gay marriage might still be assumed to be perverted. But, I'm far from being convinced that that church is anything more than a front for sexual abuse and oppression of girls and women.
    Last edited: May 26, 2008

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>