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First they came for Cartman and I didn't speak

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by The Brandon Five, Mar 6, 2011.

  1. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #75 Jersey

    Ok, we've had some back-and-forth on here about the tensions between pluralistic Western societies and Islam. Here's an incident that might get the attention of those who think this is all just Christian or Republican hysteria.

    Scientist Imam threatened over Darwinist views - Home News, UK - The Independent

    Edit: this wasn't just any mosque either....

    Retreating into Silence - MarkSteyn, National Review

    What would Richard Dawkins do?
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2011
  2. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Of course there are extremists in the Muslim community, just as there are extremists in the Christian community. In fact, I think the House of Representatives is going to investigate the relationship between Islam and terrorism, which is obviously simple bigotry, since there's been an increase in violence and rhetoric by the right wing as well in the US. Why only target a minority? Of course, the west has always committed its crimes under the name of civilization. Somehow, we're allowed to use atomic weapons and attack whenever we feel threatened. We're allowed to wage a war that kills far more innocents than Osama bin Laden killed. There is a radicalization on both sides. Naturally, if I must take sides, I take the side of the U.S., but don't hide under the illusion that Christian culture, which gave rise to some of the worst crimes against humanity in the history of humanity, is not superior to any other religion.
     
  3. PatsFanInVa

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    Interesting - and pretty much hits the points of "what the West demands of Muslim intellectuals" very succinctly.

    Basically, he is very outspoken about intellectual pursuits. He posts on the guardian UK bulletin boards (google Usama Hasan and Guardian)... and is very forthright about his beliefs. Similarly, the article posted is very clear that it's a minority opinion that his beliefs must be silenced by this behavior.

    So there you go - yes, there is a legitimate problem for the liberal Muslim (that is to say, the problem of the ultraconservative Muslim.)

    I wonder how often a rando walks up to an American scholar and says "you're an apostate (or butthole, or whatever) and should be killed." Not an inconceivable threat. But it seems that his mosque basically declared that it's his scholarship that is so divisive, not the ultraconservative backlash.

    So, since the majority of Muslims are not issuing said threats, and since there is nothing inherently un-Islamic about views such as Hasan's, how do we best encourage the voices of secular-compatible Islam?

    Note - there's no more reason to convert the extremist than there is to convert the Westboro Baptist church.

    But there is a reason, and a need, to encourage the non-extremists, from the point of view of Western non-Muslims. I can buy this.

    Step one, if you ask me, is to understand the prevalence and position of each. The outcomes of the revolutions throughout the Middle East should give us hints on this.

    PFnV
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2011
  4. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    From a local newsletter...
    Muslim Eye - UK Islamic Events & Notices

    Interesting note sort of reflecting the state of shari'a law in Britain. Seems much more concerned with fasting on Ramadan, giving to the poor, and abstaining from alcohol. But let's see what they have to say about Islamic law vs. modern ideas of civil rights...

    here's a London area (which they call Londinistan! Warning!) Muslim community newsletter...

    Islamic Events and Notices: Week Beginning Friday 5th February 2010 Mohammed Abbasi

    Really interesting how devoid of threatening material this is. Very much like any church or synagog newsletter.... by the way, could not help but notice...


    I tripped over these resources while looking for actual rulings from the shari'a court that's supposed to be convened at this mosque. My guess is it's more concerned with Muslim marriage licenses and the like than with transforming Brit society.

    However, as I said before, the fact that the extremist is reportedly coddled while the scholar feels he should apologize to offense given to his coreligionists bugs the hell out of me.

    Babies and bathwater? Or intrinsic feature of all Islamic communities, forever?

    PFnV
     
  5. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    I PatriotsReign, deeply believe that Islam is compatible with Darwin's theory of evolution

    Hmm...what was so difficult about that?

    PR
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2011
  6. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    Death threats and hate mail over evolution beliefs are just downright nasty.

    But not unheard of. And not just from Islamics, either.

    Judge John E. Jones III Receives Death Threats After Striking Down Mandated Intelligent Design Teaching

    Jones was assigned to the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District bench trial, the first direct challenge brought in the federal courts against a school district that mandated the teaching of intelligent design. On December 20, 2005, Jones ruled that the mandate was unconstitutional in a 139-page decision.

    After the ruling was handed down, some pundits immediately attacked it, notably Bill O'Reilly on Fox News accusing Jones of being a fascist and an activist judge. Casey Luskin and Jonathan Witt of the Discovery Institute, and activist Phyllis Schlafly, have leveled similar charges. Jones also received death threats as a result of which he and his family were given around-the-clock federal protection.

    In a speech to the Anti-Defamation League on February 10, 2006 he responded to critics who claimed that he had "stabbed the evangelicals who got him onto the federal bench right in the back" by noting that his duty was to the Constitution and not to special interest groups.


    John E. Jones III - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Darwin Exhibit Receives Death Threats

    On November 19, 2005 "Darwin," an important new exhibit at the American Museum of Natural History, opened in New York. In the midst of attacks on science and a sharpening clash of civilizations between the so called "faith-based" and "reality-based" communities, the AMNH has mounted a significant show that takes on one of the questions where some of the battle lines are shaping up in some of the debate over this clash--evolution.

    There are four significant things about this exhibition worth noting.

    1) The exhibit itself is remarkable, irrespective of the swirling debate more broadly in society.

    2) The exhibition couldnt be more welcome given the battles raging about evolution right now. The week the exhibit opened a judge heard a court case to determine whether the Dover, Pa. school board has the power to mandate the teaching of Intelligent Design (a religious "explanation" for the existence of life on earth) as part of the science curriculum. In late December the judge affirmed that ID was religion and thus could not be taught as science. The battle also raged outside of court, days after the court case was heard, when people in the district voted out the board that mandated the teaching of ID. In the same month as "Darwin" opened, the Kansas State Board of Education, changed the academic standards, rewriting the definition of science so that it is no longer limited to the search for natural explanations of phenomena. And in another incident, Kansas University Professor Paul Mirecki received death threats; was reportedly stalked, brutally beaten, hospitalized, interrogated like a criminal by the police after being beaten; demoted from his job and had his career ruined; for daring to teach a course--equating intelligent design with mythology--which was specifically designed to challenge the wave of creationism sweeping the land


    Darwin: "Discover the Man and the Revolutionary Theory that Changed the Course of Science and Society"

    Sir David Attenborough Receives Hate Mail + Threats Over Darwin
    Documentary


    That the distinguished naturalist Sir David Attenborough receives hate mail from Christians should be depressing for both scientists and theologians. They write to tell him “to burn in hell and good riddance”, he tells us, because he doesn’t “give credit” to the Lord for the flora and fauna that appear in his programmes. He is resigned to receiving more unholy abuse when his documentary on Charles Darwin is broadcast by the BBC on Sunday.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...rs-should-lay-off-Sir-David-Attenborough.html
     
  7. PatriotsReign

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    Somehow I believe most people in the developed world would feel less threatened by a "threat" from Christian extremists than they would from Muslim extremists.

    I KNOW for a fact the developed world is far, FAR less threatened by any Christian extremists than they are worried about Muslim extremism.

    Muslim Extremism is the #1 faith-based threat that exists in the world today. That can't be denied.
     
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  8. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    I highly doubt that the religion of the threatener matters much to the person being threatened.

    Unless you think they only take the threats of Muslim extremists seriously - in which case I suggest you ask George Tiller how he feels about that.

    Oh wait.....can't do that. He's dead.
     
  9. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No Comment, yet.
     
  10. PatsFanInVa

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    I would just like to point out that Cartman wasn't the first.

    Freddie Mercury sings in Bohemian Rhapsody,

    "Bismillah! We will not let you go!"

    Clearly the surreal courtroom scene and earlier theme of self-destruction in the ballad verses prior to the opera bit, point not to Mercury's self-discovery as a gay adolescent as so often assumed, but to his persecution by the Islamic courts that menace England's green and temperate isle.

    Bismillah, of course, is the first word of every sura of the Qur'an, and translates to "In the name of God"

    PFnV
     
  11. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    You know George Tiller's name because he is a rarity.

    Victims of Islamic extremism, not so much.
     
  12. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Just the one most people remember.

    Here's some of the forgotten ones. A very incomplete list.

    John Bayard Britton
    David Gunn
    James Barnett
    June Barnett
    Hector Zevallos
    Rosalee Zevallos
    Alice Hawthorne
    Robert Sanderson
    Emily Lyons.
    George Woodward,
     
  13. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #75 Jersey

    Give me a count and I'll get back to you with a power of ten by which to multiply it.
     
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  14. PatsFanInVa

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    So basically no reason why Christians aren't called to account for terrorism here at home by the same standard?
     
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  15. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I find it funny that people would try to equate violent acts by individuals with violence directed from the mainstream of a religion. Same with speech. Is there a mainstream Christian Church that issued death threat and advocated violence against apostates for views the church didn't agree with?

    If we see the Pew and Zogby polls of the muslim world these sorts of views are mainstream.
     
  16. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The Reason Islam and Terrorism are mentioned so often is that Islam commits so much of it (Terror & Bombs)

    Of course there are Christian terrorists but who leads the pack when it comes to terrorism, when terrorism is mentioned who immediatelly comes to mind it sure isn't the presbytarians.

    Does Whoopi & Joy realize who was flying the planes that brought down the WTC?
     
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  17. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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  18. jcdavey

    jcdavey In the Starting Line-Up

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    when i think terrorism i think white people

    [​IMG]
     
  19. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #12 Jersey

    Touche....but we're a lot of years past that
     
  20. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'll go along with that, god damn white bastards, why are the Indians still on reservations, why do we slobber and slop all over other minoritys and still keep indians out, why aren't there any indians in sit coms, when are we going to have "The First Pawnee President" does what we did to the Indians go along with Slavery, why don't we have a "Indian Caucus" in the Senate, why don't we have "Indian History Month" why don't we have a national holiday called "Geranimo Day" where are the f-cking do-gooders when it comes to the American Indians.

    :confused:
     

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