FILM STUDY: Shane Vereen as a Slot Receiver

[Joey007]

In the second play, the one Metaphors broke down, Silvestro gets caught up in the 9 tech and doesn't get to his spot until well after Vereen makes his cut, so he got skipped over entirely.

Wasn't Silvestro a DE last year??

Man Bill's gonna move everyone to TE eventually. :bricks:

 

[unoriginal]

As the play runs, the 5 defenders actually do match up but they are ready to switch on crossing routes (which the weak side WRs do).
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The LB and slot DB look to have man responsibilities but like the weak side DBs, they are playing off and I would assume they would hand off if the RB/TE crossed.
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If you have the game on DVR, check it out in motion and see what you think. With an empty backfield and only 3 yds for a 1st down, even zone concepts will look like man.

Well in zone defenders do quickly match up with the receivers, they don't all "split the difference" like the deep zone players do.

In particular I don't see that LB as being in man. If he was in man, against an empty backfield on third and three, he should be offset towards his responsibility, not lined up in the A gap. He's in no position to defend the quick pass; he's just too far away to get under an out cut, especially since he reads run first, pass second. And he's certainly not in some sort of zone under by himself because of those two deep safeties.

Additionally, if this was man coverage with or without the ability to "banjo" (the popular term around here, thank TripleOption for that) the routes, almost always the technique is for the two defenders to align at different depths, usually the outside guy deeper, so that (1) if they don't "banjo" at all or switch late they still won't both get picked or run into each other by the cross, (2) having one defender deeper than the other makes it easier to stay on top of the routes, so a little miscommunication doesn't become a big mistake, and (3) somebody has to read the route combo and call "banjo," which can't be anybody playing at the five-yard mark, because what if the damn thing is an outside fade with an inside out? Slot corner without eyes in the back of his head calls "banjo" at five yards when his guy makes an out cut — is the outside corner supposed to drop the fade? Pass it to the slot corner?

In the play we're looking at, which Shockt327 has identified as Y-Hook D-Slant, it so happens that the deep route is the in-cutting route. But another classic route combo is the "Switch" route combo, which is a skinny post (aka pole) or sometimes a five-step slant on the outside with a wheel route up the sideline from the inside receiver. If the outside defender is not deeper than the top of the in-cut on the skinny post, the wheel is impossible to defend, because the slot corner will get rubbed by the post, and the outside corner won't be able to change direction fast enough.

Granted, the Saints might be gambling a bit and playing coverage on the sticks. With two deep safeties they can do that. Granted, its a preseason game and its third-stringers so the Saints defenders may be confused as hell. Granted, they may be trying really hard to disguise man coverage with a zone look. But I think it's at least a zone look.

That is what I thought at first, but after watching it again he just seems to use his hands to get around him. He also should have been called for a false start, so this won't be on his highlight reel.

Right you are. Silvestro certainly has an uphill climb at that position.

 

[Off The Grid]

This is just phenomenal stuff. Really great work. I agree with putting this in the "Like HOF".

This is also why I was so excited when we got Vereen in 2011, why I was so disappointed at his lack of involvement last year, and why I had high hopes for him when Josh McD came back. McDaniels used Knowshon Moreno in much the same way in Denver when he was HC, with good success, and Vereen has a similar skillset (I keep hoping Denver will cut Moreno and we can pick him up for depth as a "flex back" along with Vereen). Having a back with those kind of receiving skills and ability in space just magnifies the options available to the offense, especially when combined with a guy as versatile as Aaron Hernandez and the blocking/receiving prowess of the multiple TE formation. It's nearly impossible for opposing defenses to adjust.

BTW, regarding the comment about the Jets' and Ravens' LBs and lack of lateral mobility, Gregg Rosenthal had this tidbit on the Jets-Bengals preseason game last night:



Lessons learned from Friday's NFL preseason games - NFL.com

Imagine what Vereen out of the backfield could do if the Lawfirm was able to operate effectively as a receiving option against Scott.

Could our prayers be getting answered, at last, Brother Mayo?? :rocker:

 

[jsull87]

Oh, I uploaded a video on to You Tube to make the comparision easier

The play I have here is "Empty Left - 78 Y-Hook" and "Empty Right - 78 Y-Hook" It can be found in Charlie Weis's playbook from 2003-2004. It illustrates a passing concept known commonly as the "Y-stick."

Two plays are shown. Both at regular speed. Then at half speed, with the second play flipped to make the comparison easier.

NO @ NE pre wk1 2012 (Y-Stick)

(can't wait for all-22, btw)

It's interesting how the backside receivers were open on one play but not the other. With the play that they weren't open the double slant on the backside actually looks like it would have been a better route.

 

[tuckeverlasting]

Hey guys, this play is called "Empty Right - 78 Y-Hook" It can be found in the old Charlie Weis playbook. It's a pretty basic football concept, too; know commonly as the "Y-stick." Great for preseason.

Oh, they also ran this play at 11:20 in the 1st Q; with Gronk making the catch and Ridley being the RB out in the flat. Same formation, too. Just 3 to the left, not right.

The Smart Football blog has a great write up on this very concept; and they literally take a page out of Weis's playbook, too.



(Oh, I'm not using their diagram (though it's the same one) - I looked it up in my pdf copy of the 03-04 Pats playbook, just to be sure)

wow, how did you get a hold of this ? this is great !!! i'm having flashbacks to freshmen football at algonquin. of course, 90% of our playbook was the halfback dive. so, this is amazing to me. i'm stoked i'm on a board with football heads that know the difference between a curl and go route. more like football savants. this is where espn drops the ball. give me more.

 

[Off The Grid]

wow, how did you get a hold of this ? this is great !!! i'm having flashbacks to freshmen football at algonquin. of course, 90% of our playbook was the halfback dive. so, this is amazing to me. i'm stoked i'm on a board with football heads that know the difference between a curl and go route. more like football savants. this is where espn drops the ball. give me more.

Yeah, that Site is pretty remarkable!! :rocker:

 

[Off The Grid]

Awesome Thread, Brothers Metaphor, Shock, and Unoriginal ~ needless to say!! :rocker:

 

[patfanken]

I saw the first half of the game, and it seemed the QB was in shotgun on many 3rd downs. The McDaniels way. I tend to get frustrated by this: are we that unsure of our running game that we need to go into shotgun even on 3rd and 3, or 3rd and 4? Is McD going to honor the run enough?

I used to go nuts about this very fact for many years. I hated the fact that the Pats would be in shot gun on 3rd and short (3yds or less) when it would seem to be more prudent to have the QB under C to at LEAST give the impression that a run threat was imminent.

However while it still bothers me, it bothers me less because over the years the Pats have developed a pretty good series of running plays out of the shotgun formation....and they aren't afraid to use them.

 

[dex13]

I'm waiting for the one WR set with 2 RBs and 2 TEs. Line up Vereen in the slot and Hernandez one the outside. Could easily pound it on the ground outside or run a normal pass play.

 

[Metaphors]

I'm waiting for the one WR set with 2 RBs and 2 TEs. Line up Vereen in the slot and Hernandez one the outside. Could easily pound it on the ground outside or run a normal pass play.

Not sure if you were including Hernandez as a RB in that formation, but that is the type of thing I'm looking for. With the offense on schedule (1st-10, 2nd-5, 3rd-2 sort of thing), run out Lloyd, Fells, Gronk, Hernandez and Vereen.

If the defense is base or heavy, empty the backfield with Fells in tight to keep 6 in protection (maybe releasing late). Lloyd requires at least one safety deep. If 4 players rush, that leaves 6 players (3 LBs and 3 DBs) in man/zone to handle Gronk, Hernandez, Lloyd and Vereen. By definition someone will be matched up with a LB...probably Gronk since the rest are far too quick. It just comes down to protection (which is why I'm keeping Fells in initially to help) and Brady making the right decision.

If the defense is nickel or dime, bring Gronk and Fells in tight to form a 7 man line, leave Lloyd wide to occupy a CB and keep a safety deep, bring Hernandez into the backfield next to Vereen. That leaves 8 blockers for 9 run defenders...at least 3 of which are DBs. Execute the run blocks effectively and Vereen is almost guaranteed to reach the 2nd level before being touched.

Two completely different formations with the same personnel. Shift between them quickly enough and the defense would be on their heels as well. The ability of Vereen to be an Anquan Boldin mini-me, Gronk to be a functional OT and Hernandez to be just about anything you need on offense makes this possible. The Pats offense has been historically efficient the last couple of years despite being fairly predictable. Just imagine how debilitating it would be for a defense if they DIDN'T know what was coming...and had exact the WRONG personnel on the field for the formation they were defending.

EDIT: Before the Ridley and Welker fan club flame me, I'm suggesting this alignment as a change-up. Welker should definitely be on the field for a majority of snaps and Ridley should be the bell cow RB.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Super educational thread to those of us who are interested but uneducated. This is what Patsfanken was talking about with his All 22 analysis proposal thread.

 

[BlueThunder]

You super coaches are pushing all the old info in my brain out and trying to fill it with new stuff......

 

[Hardly Dykes]

I'm not sure what's more amazing...this thread or the fact that Shane Vereen is currently the last RB in the rotation. Everything about this kid just seems like a perfect fit for this offense - another match-up nightmare.