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Filling holes in secondary.......

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by stevedogc, Feb 9, 2006.

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  1. stevedogc

    stevedogc Rookie

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    I have seen many posts and mocks that have the Pats taken a CB or safety in round 1 or 2. It has begun to make me wonder if this is the best route to go. At CB we have three young, solid players. Hobbs, Samuel and Gay. Any of which could be a solid #2 CB. Having the rest filling out the nickel/dime packages. Do we really need another young CB? And is there one in the draft that can become a shut-down CB? I'm not to sure. That being said, I would rather see them bring in some vets like they did last year. Hopefully ones that can stay healthy. I know Woodson and Clements are out there, but they want to much money. Maybe try to get a player in the next tier of FA, like Deshea Townsend or Jerry Azumah. Maybe even re-sign Poteat and Chad Scott. They should come at a cheap price. As for Poole and Starks, bye bye! Cut them and use the cash elsewhere. One last thing to remember is the Samuel is a UFA after 2006, do they re-sign him or take their chances after the season is over.

    As for safety, after seeing the results when Harrison went down, it has become obvious that the safety position is very important to the overall Pats defense then we may have thought. That's why I think we need a more established player to come in then a rookie. The guys I like are Corey Chavous, Lance Shulters or Will Demps.

    Im not against drafting either a safety or CB, but I think we have more pressing needs at other positions where some younger blood is needed which we chould address early on day one of the draft: LB (age of vets), RB (Age, injury history, salary of vets), WR (Branch is only solid WR under contract) and OL (amount of hits Brady took this year)

    Thoughts?
  2. oldrover

    oldrover Rookie

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    Don't the Jets have a CB who's a free agent? Led the league in picks? What was his name again? :D
  3. Welker83

    Welker83 Rookie

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    the Word out of the Fin Camp is they have told Schulters that they want to Re-sign him. He will prolly stay with us. I think will Demps would be a good addition though...



    Also rumors are going out that the Ravens will Cut/Trade Chris Mcalister.
    -Please remember that i said it was a rumor.
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2006
  4. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Solid point. Like you, I don't see much in the way of a #1 CB in the draft. Well, I see one, Cromartie, if he's 100%, but even so, he can't be our #1 this year, not in Belichick's defense. I don't see much in Free Agency either though. I think Clements is the only one out there that fits that description at this point of his career, and he will be chased by many. (Don't try to sell me on Ty Law...there's only one reason corners get that many picks and PI calls -- Because the QB is picking on him).

    To be honest, our best bet for our CBs might be the status quo. Hope Samuel can continue to develop into a legit #1 and Hobbs and Gay to keep improving. At least they're all affordable, and as long as the front seven can do their job, they'll be, at worst, competent.
  5. jimmyjames

    jimmyjames Rookie

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    If any of the young corners currently on the roster is going to develop into a #1 it is Hobbs.

    I agree that OC's probably went after Ty Law, but they also picked on Samuel, with much more success. I would like to have Ty Law back as either a #2 CB or a FS
  6. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Same as your user name.

    Old Dog.

    Yesterdays news.
  7. ilduce06410

    ilduce06410 Rookie

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    Just to Cloud The Issue....

    Not sure the issue is All that Simple. The choices aren't just a Samuelsl, Gay, and Hobbs rotation at CB. IMO BB is still working out the dilemma about Wilson at CB. There Is Still another Option at CB.
    BB can get a veteran SS somewhere, and draft 2 others. What to to with Scott and the other guy? In the rotation i guess.
    .
    Wilson was drafted to be a shut-down CB. He is of much more value as a CB than as a FS. Hell, we won a SB with Don friggin Davis back there.
  8. ilduce06410

    ilduce06410 Rookie

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    Are all the Variables in the Equation?

    IMO Wilson has to be kept in the equatiion. IMO you have an answer to the top-flight CB question right there. WE DRAFTED HIM AS A CB. Wilson's Much More Valuable as a CB than as a safety.
    Filling the safety positions is another matter. Harrison won't be himself until about Game 10. Gotta get 2 veterans, with on a big hitter, in here. or two. we all know the type: respected, been around a lotta years, never got a ring, will work for food 'cause he already has a lot,you fill in the rest. THEN a rotation involving Scott and Sanders starts to look a lttle better.
  9. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Well, IMO there's a reason why Belichick has signed guys like Hank Poteat, Earthwind Moreland, Chad Scott, Antuan Edwards, and converted Troy Brown and Randall Gay to CB instead of moving Eugene to CB.

    Probably two-fold:

    1) It doesn't matter how Wilson was perceived when he was drafted. He was outplayed by a large margin by Asante during his rookie camp and preseason.

    2) I believe Wilson is a Pro-Bowl caliber safety. Why would we weaken the team by moving him? Rodney Harrison might be able to play outside linebacker, and Corey Dillon might be able to play safety. But doing so would hurt the team at two positions, not just one.
  10. jimmyjames

    jimmyjames Rookie

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    Here is the list of free agent safties. Who do you think best fits your description? ADmittedly I am not familiar with many of these guys. Archuleta is a name that has been thrown around on this board a bit. I like Corey Chavous, but he may be too much of a "name" for the Pats to afford.

    Adam Archuleta UFA Rams
    Anthony Mitchell UFA Bengals
    Antuan Edwards UFA Falcons
    Antwan Harris. UFA Browns
    Bracy Walker UFA Lions
    Chad Williams UFA Ravens
    Chris Hope UFA Steelers
    Clinton Hart RFA Chargers
    Colin Branch RFA Panthers
    Corey Chavous UFA Vikings
    Deke Cooper UFA Jaguars
    Dexter Jackson UFA Buccaneers
    Donnie Nickey RFA Titans
    Earl Little UFA Packers
    Gerome Sapp RFA Colts
    Idrees Bashir UFA Panthers
    Ifeanyi Ohalete UFA Bengals
    Jarrod Cooper UFA Raiders
    John Howell UFA Seahawks
    Joseph Jefferson UFA Colts
    Keion Carpenter UFA Falcons
    Keith Davis RFA Cowboys
    Kevin McCadam UFA Falcons
    Lance Schulters UFA Dolphins
    Lynn Scott UFA Cowboys
    Marlon McCree UFA Panthers
    Marquand Manuel UFA Seahawks
    Mel Mitchell UFA Saints
    Michael Stone UFA Patriots
    Mike Furrey RFA Rams
    Omar Stoutmire UFA Redskins
    Omare Lowe UFA Falcons
    Quentin Harris UFA Cardinals
    Quintin Mikell RFA Eagles
    Ramon Walker UFA Texans
    Reggie Tongue UFA Raiders
    Ronnie Heard UFA Falcons
    Ryan Clark UFA Redskins
    Sam Brandon UFA Broncos
    Tank Williams UFA Titans
    Terrence Holt RFA Lions
    Vernon Fox UFA Lions
    Will Demps UFA Ravens
    Willie Offord UFA Vikings
    Willie Pile RFA Cowboys
  11. jimmyjames

    jimmyjames Rookie

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    Just for reference. Here are the FA cornerbacks too.

    Rashad Bauman UFA Bengals
    Ade Jimoh RFA Redskins
    Andre' Goodman UFA Lions
    Brian Williams UFA Vikings
    Chad Scott UFA Patriots
    Charles Woodson UFA Raiders
    Chris Johnson RFA Rams
    Corey Ivy UFA Rams
    Dale Carter UFA Ravens
    Dante Wesley UFA Panthers
    Deion Sanders UFA Ravens
    DeJuan Groce RFA Rams
    DeShea Townsend UFA Steelers
    DeWayne Washington UFA Chiefs
    Fakhir Brown UFA Saints
    Frank Walker RFA Giants
    Hank Poteat UFA Patriots
    Ike Taylor RFA Steelers
    Jamar Fletcher UFA Chargers
    Jason Bell UFA Texans
    Jerry Azumah RFA Bears
    Jimmy Williams UFA Seahawks
    Juran Bolden UFA Buccaneers
    Kenny Wright UFA Jaguars
    Kevin House UFA Seahawks
    Kevin Thomas UFA Bills
    Kiwaukee Thomas RFA Dolphins
    Leigh Bodden RFA Browns
    Nate Clements UFA Bills
    R.W. McQuarters UFA Lions
    Ralph Brown UFA Vikings
    Ray Mickens UFA Browns
    Raymond Walls UFA Cardinals
    Reggie Myles UFA Bengals
    Reynaldo Hill UFA Raiders
    Ricky Manning RFA Panthers
    Robert Tate UFA Cardinals
    Roderick Hood RFA Eagles
    Terry Cousin UFA Jaguars
    Terry Fair UFA Rams
    Tony Beckham UFA Titans
    Torrie Cox RFA Buccaneers
    Will Allen UFA Giants
    Willie Middlebrooks UFA 49ers
  12. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Chronic Injury, Expensive.
    Who?
    Been there, done that, still have the T-shirt.
    Been there, done that, burned the T-shirt.
    62 years old.
    Who?
    Sucks.
    Don't think we'll pay the tender.
    Who?
    Old, Probably looking for one last payday.
    Who?
    Sucks in non-Super Bowls.
    Who?
    Bad judgement -- nailed Michael Pittman's wife. Pittman has well documented anger issues and is much bigger than Little.
    Who?
    Underachiever since draft day.
    Didn't start over Kaesviharn, who'll probably be out of the league next year.
    Decent depth guy.
    Who?
    Who?
    Falcons had league's least productive safeties last year.
    Who?
    Who?
    I like him as a backup.
    Who?
    Decent depth guy.
    Decent depth guy.
    Who?
    Where would we get a guy like Michael Stone?
    Sucks.
    Seemed to regree in '05. A possibility.
    Didn't impress his first 11 times here.
    Who?
    Who?
    Decent depth guy.
    69 years old.
    Falcons safeties really, really sucked.
    Who?
    74 years old. I thought he retired. With Elway.
    Possibility.
    Him I like. Let's get brother Torry too while we're at it.
    Who?
    Decent possibility.
    Who?
    Who?
  13. jimmyjames

    jimmyjames Rookie

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    "Bad judgement -- nailed Michael Pittman's wife. Pittman has well documented anger issues and is much bigger than Little."


    This is the kind of analysis we don't get from the supposed experts. Keep it coming.
  14. tatepatsfan

    tatepatsfan Rookie

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    I agree with you. I would rather go with a FA CB and use a draft pick on an S than vice versa. Ideally (at least for me) Michael Huff would fall to us in the 1st round (or we would move up a little to get him), because he could play S right off the bat and perhaps move into the role of CB later on. However, I would love to secure a true #1 (Clements would be my first choice, possibly McCallister or even Law round 2). Of course all of this depends upon our cap space. The thing is, there is very good safety talent to be had in the 2nd or 3rd rounds usually. If we went with a FA CB, then we could go LB, RB, or OL in the first round (I believe we wil resign Givens and address WR later in the draft). Then in the 2nd or 3rd round we could go with a safety.
  15. ilduce06410

    ilduce06410 Rookie

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    an interesting assumption

    there are several facts in your post, and a couple of opinions. if you mean Wilson was outplayed at the may & june rookie camps. i wasn't there at all. don't even know if i coulda gone. if you are referring to the TC, consider was named ths starting CB for the 1st game.
    1. are you saying that by deductive reasoning or performance, wilson's performance at CB was so bad (outplayed by low-rounders) that BB/SP moved him to safety?

    actually, as a rookie in in 2003, he was the starting CB coming out of TC. the patriots website describes his play thus:
    (9/14) … Registered his first career interception in his first NFL contest (9/7) … Was part of a Patriots defense that led the NFL in four key categories: opponents’ points per game (14.9), opponents’ passer rating (56.2), interceptions (29) and passing touchdowns surrendered (11) … Named to ESPN.com’s All-Rookie Team and to USA Today’s All-Joe Team. Buffalo (9/7): Recorded his first career interception in his NFL debut when he picked off a Drew Bledsoe pass at the end of the second quarter. Philadelphia (9/14): Made his first career start at safety in the Patriots’ 31-10 win. Washington (9/28): Started at safety and registered seven tackles (6 solo), tying Tedy Bruschi. Tennessee (10/5): Finished third on the team with seven solo tackles."
    Lawyer Milloy was "cut" in September '03, just before the infamous buffalo game. wilson was moved about a month later.
    asante and earthwind, hank poteat (my favorite player) and randall gay WERE NOT THERE TILL 2004, so no way.
  16. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    Wilson got his first career start in the second game of 2003 as a safety. He has palyed that positionevery game since tehn (over fifty of them) at safety. What is this dilemma you think BB has?

    Because Wilson was a CB in college does not mean that it is a dilemma if he plays another position in the pros.

    Does Pittsburg have a Randel El dilemma? QB vs WR? Do we have a Neal dilemma? Wrestler vs OG?
  17. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You're missing the point. There have been many, many, many situations since Wilson came to the team when the patriots DESPARATELY needed a corner. How much did they need one? Enough to sign Poteat, Earthwind and shift Troy Brown to corner. Surely, it was easier to pick up a safety than a corner in at least one of these situations.

    You and other posters can continue to post that Wilson is a future starting coner for the patriots. HOWEVER, there are are at least a couple of coaches, incluuding the Head Coach, who disagree with you, and have evidenced their disagreement many times by their actions.
  18. ilduce06410

    ilduce06410 Rookie

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    from your post --- 2) I believe Wilson is a Pro-Bowl caliber safety. Why would we weaken the team by moving him? Rodney Harrison might be able to play outside linebacker, and Corey Dillon might be able to play safety. But doing so would hurt the team at two positions, not just one.
    Reply With Quote
    i think he's a pro bowl calibre safety too.
    weakening the team at 2 positions? and the team is weak at 2 positions now (CB, SS) yeah, but one of them wouldnt be cornerback. cornerback is supposedly a more inportant position (not sure i've ever thout so).
    i dunno what you mean about corey dillon playing as a DB. also, i hold my breath every time i see DB troy brown move for a tackle.
    what you'd have is 2 safeties new to the system. hey, corey might not be too bad an idea. maybe wwe could get tebucky jones as the wise old vet.
  19. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    No he wasn't. Ty and Ty were the starters, and Asante the nickel.

    Yes, in garbage time. I don't remember where he was playing at the time, but I think the Pats had in the dime package. Could be wrong.

    Yes, all at safety. That's my point. He's a very good safety, so let's keep him there.

    Wrong. According to my memory, and the summary of the Philadelphia game you cited above, Wilson started week 2 at Safety. Which means Milloy was cut on Tuesday, Antwan Harris started Sunday, and Wilson was the starter on Tuesday. At safety.
    I realize this. But in 2004 and in 2005, with all the CB injuries, BB had every chance to play Wilson at corner. Instead (in 2004) he converted Brown. Then converted Gay. Then signed Poteat. Then signed Moreland. (2005 now) Signed Chad Scott. Signed Antuan Edwards. Re-signed Poteat. Kept playing Starks with a busted shoulder. Signed Hawkins. And I may be forgetting a few.

    So my question is why is Belichick going to make Wilson a corner now, when during the extenuating circumstances of the last two seasons, he did everything except suit up himself in order not to switch Wilson to corner?
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2006
  20. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Because by playing Wilson at Corner we're not only weakening the corner position, we're weakening the safety position as well.
  21. ilduce06410

    ilduce06410 Rookie

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    actually, he went thru TC and his first 3 games as CB

    take it easy, mon.
    heck, i'm not gonna call up weei or write a letter to SP/BB. not even sure how much i like the idea m'self. BUT
    wilson is a viabgle option as a first-rate CB and we're desperate to have one. what is the dilemma?
    spend big money or a high draft choice to get a so-called shutdown CB, or
    spend less money and get a rodney-type for one of the safety spots.
    is there one out there? hey, is there a shutdown CB out there?
    i don't know if wilson can still even play CB. but IMO they work him out there and presto! They Have a Conundrum. an Impasse. Something to Chew The Fat Over.
  22. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Yeah, but barely.

    The moment Wilson or Harrison went down in those superbowls, we became immediately susceptible to the deep throw. Remember how exciting those 4th quarters got?

    .
  23. nickw308810

    nickw308810 Rookie

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    Probably a bunch of people are going to disagree with me, but I feel we already have our number 1 CB for next year. His name? Randall Gay. He is big enough to stay with bigger WR as he proved when he had to cover TO in the Super Bowl. Sure TO had a lot of yards, but 40-something of those were on a play in which Gay got picked by Freddie Mitchell. If Gay is healthy I see no reason why he can't develop to be our guy. I saw a few times where someone said something about Gay being converted and I was just wondering what they meant because I thought he was a CB at LSU.
    And as far as S goes it all depends on Harrison obviously. If he is healthy we are fine. But if he can't play we need a veteran. I think Hawkins did a good enough job. If he is playing for the vet. minimum I would sign him and start him until Harrison is ready to come back. No point in wasting a lot of money on a SS when we already have one of the best in the league. We also have to wait to see what we have in James Sanders. Gus Scott always looks impressive in camp but then gets hurt. He is more of a FS to me anyway, but I am sure he can play both.
  24. flutie2phelan

    flutie2phelan Rookie

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    To judge from his fingernail bios of almost everyone - when he's not posting for us ... Dryheat44 is a pro players scout somewhere in the league.

    Anyway, he and mgteich, above, have emphatically and conclusively voiced why Eugene Wilson's continuing position on the team is not in doubt. That discussion should be closed; there is no more room. He plays safety.

  25. CheerforTom

    CheerforTom Rookie

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    Excuse me for being a secondary noob, but what's so wrong with Ty Poole?? I've never heard anybody say he'll even be on the team next year, so there's obviously something I don't know or understand, but if you look back at the last couple years it seems to me the guy was a pick machine! What's the deal, why wouldn't he even be suitable for a #3 or 4??
  26. shirtsleeve

    shirtsleeve Rookie

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    Hmmmm...lots of good thoughts here. Although evaluating talent is not one of my talents, everything I read says that OG is really thin in this draft. That being said, I say we either resign or go FA for O line help. Maybe take a late rounder as a project. WR is always a possibility, but unless we trade up, the real impact WR's in rd 1 will probably be gone by the time we get to pick, so either we re-sign Givens, look to FA's (again, from what I read, everyone out there who is a break even or trade up in talent to David will cost us more than he will), or we draft later in day one, and if drafted well, should work out.
    The same could be said for RB's in FA/or the draft.

    Figuring these into the equation, I look to our first and probably second picks in this draft going to either a LB or DB. Again, from what I read, this IS the year of the DB. Lots of really good prospects out there at both the safety and CB positions. So I look for us to take one with our first pick. My personal favorite is Bing (what's his first name again? Chandler? :D :confused: , told ya, this aint my specialty) if he's still around. I see us going after a LB in round 2 and looking at WR with one of our 3's.


    'Course, nothin would shock me on draft day. Logan who? The only Logan I heard of before last years draft was the one I've flown out of a few times.
  27. flutie2phelan

    flutie2phelan Rookie

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    Most of us, Tom, think that (1st) Poole is overpriced - certainly costlier than a 3 or 4 should be - and (2nd) over the past couple seasons he has signaled by both word and (in)action ... that he would rather collect his gamecheck from the whirlpool, than risk himself on the field of play.

    Not good omens for career longevity here.

    We could be wrong, of course.
  28. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    As Charles Barkley would say, "But we doubt it."
  29. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Poole has been on IR two years in a row, and doesn't seem to really want to play. If he really wants to play, he could compete for a starting spot. But I think his time is done.

  30. hwc

    hwc Rookie

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    I don't think we have to question Poole's desire to simply say that he hasn't been on the field for two years. When a guy can't play, we can't afford to pass up the $1.8 million in cap savings and go find somebody who can play.
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