Filling holes in secondary.......

[stevedogc]

I have seen many posts and mocks that have the Pats taken a CB or safety in round 1 or 2. It has begun to make me wonder if this is the best route to go. At CB we have three young, solid players. Hobbs, Samuel and Gay. Any of which could be a solid #2 CB. Having the rest filling out the nickel/dime packages. Do we really need another young CB? And is there one in the draft that can become a shut-down CB? I'm not to sure. That being said, I would rather see them bring in some vets like they did last year. Hopefully ones that can stay healthy. I know Woodson and Clements are out there, but they want to much money. Maybe try to get a player in the next tier of FA, like Deshea Townsend or Jerry Azumah. Maybe even re-sign Poteat and Chad Scott. They should come at a cheap price. As for Poole and Starks, bye bye! Cut them and use the cash elsewhere. One last thing to remember is the Samuel is a UFA after 2006, do they re-sign him or take their chances after the season is over.

As for safety, after seeing the results when Harrison went down, it has become obvious that the safety position is very important to the overall Pats defense then we may have thought. That's why I think we need a more established player to come in then a rookie. The guys I like are Corey Chavous, Lance Shulters or Will Demps.

Im not against drafting either a safety or CB, but I think we have more pressing needs at other positions where some younger blood is needed which we chould address early on day one of the draft: LB (age of vets), RB (Age, injury history, salary of vets), WR (Branch is only solid WR under contract) and OL (amount of hits Brady took this year)

Thoughts?

 

[oldrover]

Don't the Jets have a CB who's a free agent? Led the league in picks? What was his name again?

 

[Welker83]

the Word out of the Fin Camp is they have told Schulters that they want to Re-sign him. He will prolly stay with us. I think will Demps would be a good addition though...



Also rumors are going out that the Ravens will Cut/Trade Chris Mcalister.
-Please remember that i said it was a rumor.

 

[dryheat44]

I have seen many posts and mocks that have the Pats taken a CB or safety in round 1 or 2. It has begun to make me wonder if this is the best route to go. At CB we have three young, solid players. Hobbs, Samuel and Gay. Any of which could be a solid #2 CB. Having the rest filling out the nickel/dime packages. Do we really need another young CB? And is there one in the draft that can become a shut-down CB? I'm not to sure. That being said, I would rather see them bring in some vets like they did last year. Hopefully ones that can stay healthy. I know Woodson and Clements are out there, but they want to much money. Maybe try to get a player in the next tier of FA, like Deshea Townsend or Jerry Azumah. Maybe even re-sign Poteat and Chad Scott. They should come at a cheap price. As for Poole and Starks, bye bye! Cut them and use the cash elsewhere. One last thing to remember is the Samuel is a UFA after 2006, do they re-sign him or take their chances after the season is over.

Thoughts?

Solid point. Like you, I don't see much in the way of a #1 CB in the draft. Well, I see one, Cromartie, if he's 100%, but even so, he can't be our #1 this year, not in Belichick's defense. I don't see much in Free Agency either though. I think Clements is the only one out there that fits that description at this point of his career, and he will be chased by many. (Don't try to sell me on Ty Law...there's only one reason corners get that many picks and PI calls -- Because the QB is picking on him).

To be honest, our best bet for our CBs might be the status quo. Hope Samuel can continue to develop into a legit #1 and Hobbs and Gay to keep improving. At least they're all affordable, and as long as the front seven can do their job, they'll be, at worst, competent.

 

[jimmyjames]

If any of the young corners currently on the roster is going to develop into a #1 it is Hobbs.

I agree that OC's probably went after Ty Law, but they also picked on Samuel, with much more success. I would like to have Ty Law back as either a #2 CB or a FS

 

[RayClay]

Don't the Jets have a CB who's a free agent? Led the league in picks? What was his name again?

Same as your user name.

Old Dog.

Yesterdays news.

 

[ilduce06410]

Just to Cloud The Issue....

Solid point. Like you, I don't see much in the way of a #1 CB in the draft. Well, I see one, Cromartie, if he's 100%, but even so, he can't be our #1 this year, not in Belichick's defense. I don't see much in Free Agency either though. I think Clements is the only one out there that fits that description at this point of his career, and he will be chased by many. (Don't try to sell me on Ty Law...there's only one reason corners get that many picks and PI calls -- Because the QB is picking on him).

To be honest, our best bet for our CBs might be the status quo. Hope Samuel can continue to develop into a legit #1 and Hobbs and Gay to keep improving. At least they're all affordable, and as long as the front seven can do their job, they'll be, at worst, competent.

Not sure the issue is All that Simple. The choices aren't just a Samuelsl, Gay, and Hobbs rotation at CB. IMO BB is still working out the dilemma about Wilson at CB. There Is Still another Option at CB.
BB can get a veteran SS somewhere, and draft 2 others. What to to with Scott and the other guy? In the rotation i guess.
.
Wilson was drafted to be a shut-down CB. He is of much more value as a CB than as a FS. Hell, we won a SB with Don friggin Davis back there.

 

[ilduce06410]

Are all the Variables in the Equation?

If any of the young corners currently on the roster is going to develop into a #1 it is Hobbs.

I agree that OC's probably went after Ty Law, but they also picked on Samuel, with much more success. I would like to have Ty Law back as either a #2 CB or a FS

IMO Wilson has to be kept in the equatiion. IMO you have an answer to the top-flight CB question right there. WE DRAFTED HIM AS A CB. Wilson's Much More Valuable as a CB than as a safety.
Filling the safety positions is another matter. Harrison won't be himself until about Game 10. Gotta get 2 veterans, with on a big hitter, in here. or two. we all know the type: respected, been around a lotta years, never got a ring, will work for food 'cause he already has a lot,you fill in the rest. THEN a rotation involving Scott and Sanders starts to look a lttle better.

 

[dryheat44]

Well, IMO there's a reason why Belichick has signed guys like Hank Poteat, Earthwind Moreland, Chad Scott, Antuan Edwards, and converted Troy Brown and Randall Gay to CB instead of moving Eugene to CB.

Probably two-fold:

1) It doesn't matter how Wilson was perceived when he was drafted. He was outplayed by a large margin by Asante during his rookie camp and preseason.

2) I believe Wilson is a Pro-Bowl caliber safety. Why would we weaken the team by moving him? Rodney Harrison might be able to play outside linebacker, and Corey Dillon might be able to play safety. But doing so would hurt the team at two positions, not just one.

 

[jimmyjames]

IMO Wilson has to be kept in the equatiion. IMO you have an answer to the top-flight CB question right there. WE DRAFTED HIM AS A CB. Wilson's Much More Valuable as a CB than as a safety.
Filling the safety positions is another matter. Harrison won't be himself until about Game 10. Gotta get 2 veterans, with on a big hitter, in here. or two. we all know the type: respected, been around a lotta years, never got a ring, will work for food 'cause he already has a lot,you fill in the rest. THEN a rotation involving Scott and Sanders starts to look a lttle better.

Here is the list of free agent safties. Who do you think best fits your description? ADmittedly I am not familiar with many of these guys. Archuleta is a name that has been thrown around on this board a bit. I like Corey Chavous, but he may be too much of a "name" for the Pats to afford.

Adam Archuleta UFA Rams
Anthony Mitchell UFA Bengals
Antuan Edwards UFA Falcons
Antwan Harris. UFA Browns
Bracy Walker UFA Lions
Chad Williams UFA Ravens
Chris Hope UFA Steelers
Clinton Hart RFA Chargers
Colin Branch RFA Panthers
Corey Chavous UFA Vikings
Deke Cooper UFA Jaguars
Dexter Jackson UFA Buccaneers
Donnie Nickey RFA Titans
Earl Little UFA Packers
Gerome Sapp RFA Colts
Idrees Bashir UFA Panthers
Ifeanyi Ohalete UFA Bengals
Jarrod Cooper UFA Raiders
John Howell UFA Seahawks
Joseph Jefferson UFA Colts
Keion Carpenter UFA Falcons
Keith Davis RFA Cowboys
Kevin McCadam UFA Falcons
Lance Schulters UFA Dolphins
Lynn Scott UFA Cowboys
Marlon McCree UFA Panthers
Marquand Manuel UFA Seahawks
Mel Mitchell UFA Saints
Michael Stone UFA Patriots
Mike Furrey RFA Rams
Omar Stoutmire UFA Redskins
Omare Lowe UFA Falcons
Quentin Harris UFA Cardinals
Quintin Mikell RFA Eagles
Ramon Walker UFA Texans
Reggie Tongue UFA Raiders
Ronnie Heard UFA Falcons
Ryan Clark UFA Redskins
Sam Brandon UFA Broncos
Tank Williams UFA Titans
Terrence Holt RFA Lions
Vernon Fox UFA Lions
Will Demps UFA Ravens
Willie Offord UFA Vikings
Willie Pile RFA Cowboys

 

[jimmyjames]

Just for reference. Here are the FA cornerbacks too.

Rashad Bauman UFA Bengals
Ade Jimoh RFA Redskins
Andre' Goodman UFA Lions
Brian Williams UFA Vikings
Chad Scott UFA Patriots
Charles Woodson UFA Raiders
Chris Johnson RFA Rams
Corey Ivy UFA Rams
Dale Carter UFA Ravens
Dante Wesley UFA Panthers
Deion Sanders UFA Ravens
DeJuan Groce RFA Rams
DeShea Townsend UFA Steelers
DeWayne Washington UFA Chiefs
Fakhir Brown UFA Saints
Frank Walker RFA Giants
Hank Poteat UFA Patriots
Ike Taylor RFA Steelers
Jamar Fletcher UFA Chargers
Jason Bell UFA Texans
Jerry Azumah RFA Bears
Jimmy Williams UFA Seahawks
Juran Bolden UFA Buccaneers
Kenny Wright UFA Jaguars
Kevin House UFA Seahawks
Kevin Thomas UFA Bills
Kiwaukee Thomas RFA Dolphins
Leigh Bodden RFA Browns
Nate Clements UFA Bills
R.W. McQuarters UFA Lions
Ralph Brown UFA Vikings
Ray Mickens UFA Browns
Raymond Walls UFA Cardinals
Reggie Myles UFA Bengals
Reynaldo Hill UFA Raiders
Ricky Manning RFA Panthers
Robert Tate UFA Cardinals
Roderick Hood RFA Eagles
Terry Cousin UFA Jaguars
Terry Fair UFA Rams
Tony Beckham UFA Titans
Torrie Cox RFA Buccaneers
Will Allen UFA Giants
Willie Middlebrooks UFA 49ers

 

[dryheat44]

Here is the list of free agent safties. Who do you think best fits your description? ADmittedly I am not familiar with many of these guys. Archuleta is a name that has been thrown around on this board a bit. I like Corey Chavous, but he may be too much of a "name" for the Pats to afford.

Adam Archuleta UFA Rams

Chronic Injury, Expensive.

Anthony Mitchell UFA Bengals

Who?

Antuan Edwards UFA Falcons

Been there, done that, still have the T-shirt.

Antwan Harris. UFA Browns

Been there, done that, burned the T-shirt.

Bracy Walker UFA Lions

62 years old.

Chad Williams UFA Ravens

Who?

Chris Hope UFA Steelers

Sucks.

Clinton Hart RFA Chargers

Don't think we'll pay the tender.

Colin Branch RFA Panthers

Who?

Corey Chavous UFA Vikings

Old, Probably looking for one last payday.

Deke Cooper UFA Jaguars

Who?

Dexter Jackson UFA Buccaneers

Sucks in non-Super Bowls.

Donnie Nickey RFA Titans

Who?

Earl Little UFA Packers

Bad judgement -- nailed Michael Pittman's wife. Pittman has well documented anger issues and is much bigger than Little.

Gerome Sapp RFA Colts

Who?

Idrees Bashir UFA Panthers

Underachiever since draft day.

Ifeanyi Ohalete UFA Bengals

Didn't start over Kaesviharn, who'll probably be out of the league next year.

Jarrod Cooper UFA Raiders

Decent depth guy.

John Howell UFA Seahawks

Who?

Joseph Jefferson UFA Colts

Who?

Keion Carpenter UFA Falcons

Falcons had league's least productive safeties last year.

Keith Davis RFA Cowboys

Who?

Kevin McCadam UFA Falcons

Who?

Lance Schulters UFA Dolphins

I like him as a backup.

Lynn Scott UFA Cowboys

Who?

Marlon McCree UFA Panthers

Decent depth guy.

Marquand Manuel UFA Seahawks

Decent depth guy.

Mel Mitchell UFA Saints

Who?

Michael Stone UFA Patriots

Where would we get a guy like Michael Stone?

Mike Furrey RFA Rams

Sucks.

Omar Stoutmire UFA Redskins

Seemed to regree in '05. A possibility.

Omare Lowe UFA Falcons

Didn't impress his first 11 times here.

Quentin Harris UFA Cardinals

Who?

Quintin Mikell RFA Eagles

Who?

Ramon Walker UFA Texans

Decent depth guy.

Reggie Tongue UFA Raiders

69 years old.

Ronnie Heard UFA Falcons

Falcons safeties really, really sucked.

Ryan Clark UFA Redskins

Who?

Sam Brandon UFA Broncos

74 years old. I thought he retired. With Elway.

Tank Williams UFA Titans

Possibility.

Terrence Holt RFA Lions

Him I like. Let's get brother Torry too while we're at it.

Vernon Fox UFA Lions

Who?

Will Demps UFA Ravens

Decent possibility.

Willie Offord UFA Vikings

Who?

Willie Pile RFA Cowboys

Who?

 

[jimmyjames]

"Bad judgement -- nailed Michael Pittman's wife. Pittman has well documented anger issues and is much bigger than Little."


This is the kind of analysis we don't get from the supposed experts. Keep it coming.

 

[tatepatsfan]

I agree with you. I would rather go with a FA CB and use a draft pick on an S than vice versa. Ideally (at least for me) Michael Huff would fall to us in the 1st round (or we would move up a little to get him), because he could play S right off the bat and perhaps move into the role of CB later on. However, I would love to secure a true #1 (Clements would be my first choice, possibly McCallister or even Law round 2). Of course all of this depends upon our cap space. The thing is, there is very good safety talent to be had in the 2nd or 3rd rounds usually. If we went with a FA CB, then we could go LB, RB, or OL in the first round (I believe we wil resign Givens and address WR later in the draft). Then in the 2nd or 3rd round we could go with a safety.

 

[ilduce06410]

an interesting assumption

Well, IMO there's a reason why Belichick has signed guys like Hank Poteat, Earthwind Moreland, Chad Scott, Antuan Edwards, and converted Troy Brown and Randall Gay to CB instead of moving Eugene to CB.
Probably two-fold:
1) It doesn't matter how Wilson was perceived when he was drafted. He was outplayed by a large margin by Asante during his rookie camp and preseason.
2) I believe Wilson is a Pro-Bowl caliber safety. Why would we weaken the team by moving him? Rodney Harrison might be able to play outside linebacker, and Corey Dillon might be able to play safety. But doing so would hurt the team at two positions, not just one.

there are several facts in your post, and a couple of opinions. if you mean Wilson was outplayed at the may & june rookie camps. i wasn't there at all. don't even know if i coulda gone. if you are referring to the TC, consider was named ths starting CB for the 1st game.
1. are you saying that by deductive reasoning or performance, wilson's performance at CB was so bad (outplayed by low-rounders) that BB/SP moved him to safety?

actually, as a rookie in in 2003, he was the starting CB coming out of TC. the patriots website describes his play thus:
(9/14) … Registered his first career interception in his first NFL contest (9/7) … Was part of a Patriots defense that led the NFL in four key categories: opponents’ points per game (14.9), opponents’ passer rating (56.2), interceptions (29) and passing touchdowns surrendered (11) … Named to ESPN.com’s All-Rookie Team and to USA Today’s All-Joe Team. Buffalo (9/7): Recorded his first career interception in his NFL debut when he picked off a Drew Bledsoe pass at the end of the second quarter. Philadelphia (9/14): Made his first career start at safety in the Patriots’ 31-10 win. Washington (9/28): Started at safety and registered seven tackles (6 solo), tying Tedy Bruschi. Tennessee (10/5): Finished third on the team with seven solo tackles."
Lawyer Milloy was "cut" in September '03, just before the infamous buffalo game. wilson was moved about a month later.
asante and earthwind, hank poteat (my favorite player) and randall gay WERE NOT THERE TILL 2004, so no way.

 

[spacecrime]

IMO BB is still working out the dilemma about Wilson at CB. There Is Still another Option at CB.

Wilson got his first career start in the second game of 2003 as a safety. He has palyed that positionevery game since tehn (over fifty of them) at safety. What is this dilemma you think BB has?

Because Wilson was a CB in college does not mean that it is a dilemma if he plays another position in the pros.

Does Pittsburg have a Randel El dilemma? QB vs WR? Do we have a Neal dilemma? Wrestler vs OG?

 

[mgteich]

You're missing the point. There have been many, many, many situations since Wilson came to the team when the patriots DESPARATELY needed a corner. How much did they need one? Enough to sign Poteat, Earthwind and shift Troy Brown to corner. Surely, it was easier to pick up a safety than a corner in at least one of these situations.

You and other posters can continue to post that Wilson is a future starting coner for the patriots. HOWEVER, there are are at least a couple of coaches, incluuding the Head Coach, who disagree with you, and have evidenced their disagreement many times by their actions.

 

[ilduce06410]

from your post --- 2) I believe Wilson is a Pro-Bowl caliber safety. Why would we weaken the team by moving him? Rodney Harrison might be able to play outside linebacker, and Corey Dillon might be able to play safety. But doing so would hurt the team at two positions, not just one.
Reply With Quote
i think he's a pro bowl calibre safety too.
weakening the team at 2 positions? and the team is weak at 2 positions now (CB, SS) yeah, but one of them wouldnt be cornerback. cornerback is supposedly a more inportant position (not sure i've ever thout so).
i dunno what you mean about corey dillon playing as a DB. also, i hold my breath every time i see DB troy brown move for a tackle.
what you'd have is 2 safeties new to the system. hey, corey might not be too bad an idea. maybe wwe could get tebucky jones as the wise old vet.

 

[dryheat44]

actually, as a rookie in in 2003, he was the starting CB coming out of TC. the patriots website describes his play thus:

No he wasn't. Ty and Ty were the starters, and Asante the nickel.

(9/14) … Registered his first career interception in his first NFL contest

Yes, in garbage time. I don't remember where he was playing at the time, but I think the Pats had in the dime package. Could be wrong.

(9/7) … Was part of a Patriots defense that led the NFL in four key categories: opponents’ points per game (14.9), opponents’ passer rating (56.2), interceptions (29) and passing touchdowns surrendered (11) … Named to ESPN.com’s All-Rookie Team and to USA Today’s All-Joe Team.

Yes, all at safety. That's my point. He's a very good safety, so let's keep him there.

Buffalo (9/7): Recorded his first career interception in his NFL debut when he picked off a Drew Bledsoe pass at the end of the second quarter. Philadelphia (9/14): Made his first career start at safety in the Patriots’ 31-10 win. Washington (9/28): Started at safety and registered seven tackles (6 solo), tying Tedy Bruschi. Tennessee (10/5): Finished third on the team with seven solo tackles."
Lawyer Milloy was "cut" in September '03, just before the infamous buffalo game. wilson was moved about a month later.

Wrong. According to my memory, and the summary of the Philadelphia game you cited above, Wilson started week 2 at Safety. Which means Milloy was cut on Tuesday, Antwan Harris started Sunday, and Wilson was the starter on Tuesday. At safety.

asante and earthwind, hank poteat (my favorite player) and randall gay WERE NOT THERE TILL 2004, so no way.

I realize this. But in 2004 and in 2005, with all the CB injuries, BB had every chance to play Wilson at corner. Instead (in 2004) he converted Brown. Then converted Gay. Then signed Poteat. Then signed Moreland. (2005 now) Signed Chad Scott. Signed Antuan Edwards. Re-signed Poteat. Kept playing Starks with a busted shoulder. Signed Hawkins. And I may be forgetting a few.

So my question is why is Belichick going to make Wilson a corner now, when during the extenuating circumstances of the last two seasons, he did everything except suit up himself in order not to switch Wilson to corner?

 

[dryheat44]

weakening the team at 2 positions? and the team is weak at 2 positions now (CB, SS) yeah, but one of them wouldnt be cornerback. cornerback is supposedly a more inportant position (not sure i've ever thout so).

Because by playing Wilson at Corner we're not only weakening the corner position, we're weakening the safety position as well.