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Felger look at FA and the Pats cap

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by PatsRI, Jan 25, 2006.

  1. PatsRI

    PatsRI PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    http://patriots.bostonherald.com/patriots/view.bg?articleid=122879&format=&page=2

    One item of interest was this comment on the Labor talks:

    "That being said, the feeling in the agent community is that significant progress has been made recently on a new CBA, with both the players and the owners pushing to get it done prior to free agency. In fact, there are rumblings that the signing period (set to begin March 3) could even be pushed back a week to allow all the details to be hammered out and everyone brought up to speed on the new numbers."

    Sounds like a deal could be close but......
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2006
  2. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Man, this would compress the FA season even more because I can't imagine that the NFL would push back the draft by a week.
     
  3. shatch62

    shatch62 Practice Squad Player

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    What’s the price for Givens?

    Per the Fleger article:
    "The low end of the scale is represented by Cincinnati’s T.J. Houshmandzadeh, who signed a four-year, $13 million deal with the Bengals last offseason. More apt comparisons involve deals signed by Plaxico Burress with the Giants (six years, $25 million, $8 million in bonuses) and Derrick Mason with the Ravens (five years, $20 million, $7 million signing bonus) last year. And when former Pats veteran David Patten, 31, receives a five-year, $13 million deal (with a $3.5 million bonus) as he did from Washington last March, you get the picture: Givens, 25, should do very nicely for himself."

    Givens is better than Patten as he is younger and bigger. He is comparable to Houshmandzadeh in size and production. If the contract Givens gets is better than Patten and around Houshmandzadeh then he will have been paid correctly. If anyone gives him Mason or Burress money than they are stupid.

    Burress already had 3 seasons of 60+ receptions (high of 78) and 2 seasons with 1,000+ receiving yards (1,325 best).

    Mason already had 5 seasons of 60+ receptions (the last two were 95+) and 4 seasons with 1,000+ receiving yards (1,303 best).

    To date Givens has yet to have a 60+ reception season (59 career high) or even have one season with more than 900 receiving yards.

    He is a good number #2 and he MIGHT be a good #1 for someone but if they pay him that way BEFORE he puts up the numbers I feel it will be a mistake.
     
  4. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm not trying to rip on Givens, I would love to have him back, but he's a decent #2 WR or a great #3 IMO. He's big, strong and has good hands but isn't fast or quick enough to get open consistently. If we can find the right guy I would actually like to upgrade the #2 WR spot - and I'm guessing Belichick feels the same way, if we'd have signed Derrick Mason, he and Branch would have been the top two and Givens would have been a stud #3.
     
  5. ilduce06410

    ilduce06410 Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    givens not done yet

    givens isn't through getting better. he's improved every year in the league, and he'll be working like crazy this offseason too.
    i love him as a #2, with a strong #1 on the other side or a TE/RB combo who catch the ball. if he goes to an offense where's a diversion he will hurt the oposition.
    i'm sure BB/SP won't pay givens more than $2m a year. they still gotta deal with The Twig, who's on the last year of his paltry rookie contract.
     
  6. ilduce06410

    ilduce06410 Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    pushing draft back messes with mini-camps

    compressing the FA season seems the better option.
    which FAs do you see BB/SP pursuing?
     
  7. fgssand

    fgssand PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #17 Jersey

    Interesting off seasom coming up. New CB agreement will be in place and the new cap number will be the highest ever. Couple that with some easy restructuring ( Willie Mac, Starks, Poole, and others deals will be redone or some players cut)on our team and we are going to have some serious money to use.

    I trust that BB and SP know what they are doing and will get the job done. I am hopeful that Givens, Neal, Ashwoth all sign on, that Branch and Seymour deals are done this year, and we may just be a little active in the FA market.

    If you use Felgers conservative 9MM savings and factor in another 10MM in higher cap dollars, there should be enough to do what we need done.

    As long as no one is looking to break the bank and be unreasonale, I think we will keeep and resign our own and be in great shape. Bettors should back the Pats for SB XLI as soon as the odds are listed following the Superbowl.
     
  8. Welker83

    Welker83 On the Game Day Roster

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    Givens is not a "big" receiver at 6', he is however a very good one.


    I have been talking to a Friend of mine who is an Agent and he has said that the talks are not going that well, but that as the pressure comes down to get it done he feels it should not be a problem. Until the owners figure out their revenue sharing system there will be no progress on the negotiations with the players union. Luckily he said that both sides know a strike would be in their worst interests...
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2006
  9. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The free agents WILL be looking to "breaking the bank" It is their turn to get a their piece of the larger pie. We will NOT get better and more free agents because everyone has more money to spend. The price will simply go up. Those teams in cap trouble will be helped the most.

     
  10. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Givens is a very big WR, he's just not a hugely tall WR. His build is as big as almost any WR in the league. Height, though, is just a touch over average.
     
  11. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    BBs approach to FA is even harder to figure out that his draft strategy.
    Aside from filling in the needed holes, which as it stands today (before resigning anyone seem to be one starting OL, 3 WRs, a new set of FA corners to compete with or replace last years that all ended up injured)
    my question is what does he want to upgrade?
    I see a few areas Id be considering upgrades to.
    1) OL. I think this was the worst year for our OL since 2002. Now with everyone healthy and the rookies a year older doing nothing could equal an upgrade. But I felt there were numerous times this year our offense needed to dig out of a hole, or tried to establish the run-or control the clock, and the OL didn't hold up its end. I'm very confident BB will make sure he has quality and depth at WR, and Im fine with Dillon, so the OL may need an upgrade for the O to really take the next step.
    2) Pass rushers. We came on better at the end, but that may have been more due to increased blitzing, but early in the season we struggled to rush the passer. Using our OLBs as 3rd down DEs is tougher with Vrabel at ILB and all 3 playing every down. Aside from Seymour, I wasnt impressed with any of our inside rushers on 3rd down. I would not be surprised to see BB look at situational pass rush types.
    3) The secondary. We simply cannot have a 3rd straight year of a decimated secondary and playing guys off the street. I think BB invests heavily in either top line younger players (moving some of the guys we have to 'depth') or at least in more reliable depth. Its hard on one hand to say he didnt work hard to build depth this year, but the depth was a combination of aged vets (some with injury hisotries) and guys who have never really played much in the league. I think BB is going to look at the 'middle class' here, of youngish vets who have experience and have stayed healthy rather than the older guys who keep getting hurt on him.

    Thoughts?
     
  12. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    One note that seems to have been over-looked is Felger mentioning that the Salary Cap could go over $100 million because of the new monies that are being talked about figuring into the equation.

    If that happens, I would be stoked for the Patriots.
     
  13. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    1) O-line - I expect the Patriots to draft a young C/G to groom behind Koppen and Hochstein. I also would like to see them grab an OT as well. Gorin just doesn't impress except as a back-up and the Pats need a 4th OT. That is unless they bring back Wesley Britt.

    2) I think they do need to draft an OLB/DE tweener to mold behind Willie. TBC just doesn't do it for me and last year was his year to take a step up and he really didn't. Another guy at ILB would also be nice, though not imperative since they already have Claridge there and Beisel. I don't want to move Vrabel back to the OLB position. Colvin is more able to handle the pass-rushing stuff there. And he's solidified his game as a run stopper as well.

    3) Secondary - AJ, how can you plan for the catastrophic injuries that hit? You can't. The Patriots did their best to do so, but having 6 of 10 DBs end up on the IR 6 weeks into the season had been unheard of (to my knowledge) until it happened to the Pats. Does that mean they don't need to upgrade? No. They do. But they have several decisions to make 1st. The biggest is how many DBs will they carry next year.

    CBs: Hobbs, Samuel, Starks, Poole
    CB/S: Gay*, Wilson
    S: Harrison, Sanders, G. Scott *

    * = ERFA

    A) Ty Poole - Most of us think he is gone. He'd save the Pats 1.5 million on the cap by cutting him
    B) Duane Starks - I think he gets brought back with a restructured deal. Others think he gets cut. Either way, he supposedly played with a bum shoulder until he got IRed. Reports say that his shoulder was a massive mess. This probably influenced how well he played.
    C) Guss Scott - 2 years and 2 straight times onto the IR. If BB doesn't tender him, then that opens up a developmental slot.
    D) Michael Stone- He was, by far, the best special teamer we had. Better than Izzo. And that is saying something. He also played decently enough during regular snaps not to be a total liability on the field. He needs to be re-signed
    E) Artrell Hawkins - His veteran presences and almost seemless transistion into being a Safety for the Pats should earn him a contract.
    F) Randall Gay - Didn't beat out Ty Poole as the starter coming out of camp and was playing injured until finally landing on the IR. He's an ERFA that should be tendered.
    G) Chad Scott - He's a Safety/Corner tweener. He played well when he wasn't injured. It will be interesting to see if the Pats sign him to another 1 year deal.
     
  14. shatch62

    shatch62 Practice Squad Player

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    thought

    1) I’ll give the o-line the benefit of the doubt. Too many starters missed too many games. If Gorin is playing major minutes again next year they will be in trouble but I think a O-line of Light, Mankins, Koppen, Kazur and Ashworth will be more than serviceable. If BB wants to draft an O-line in the first round because of the way they played I have no issue with that but I think they will be all right if they can just get the players they have healthy.

    2) Pats have never gotten the pass rush from the inside guys. They have always relied upon the whole team to pressure the QB. The rushing LB either got to the QB or drew the o-line’s attention away from the D-line long enough for one of the hogs to get in.
    Here are the team numbers for the last two years:

    Year Sacks Rank NFL Team best
    2004 45 5th 48
    2005 33 23rd 50

    Players 2004 2005 difference
    McGinest 9.5 6 -3.5
    Vrabel 5.5 4 -1.5
    Seymour 5 4 -1
    Colvin 5 7 +2
    Green 4 2.5 -1.5
    Bruschi 3.5 2 -1.5
    Warren 3.5 1.5 -2
    Harrison 2 0 -2
    Wilfork 2 .5 -1.5
    Klecko 0 .5 +.5

    If you look at the D-line #s alone the numbers were down from 14.5 to 8.5 sacks. If Seymour doesn’t miss numerous games the numbers would probably be closer to 14.5/11.5. With all the injuries that were had it is a miracle that the Pats still got 33 sacks. Figure if every player on the list above got just .5 more sacks this year then the Pats would have totaled 38 sacks and the numbers weren’t that bad. I’m not saying that the Pass rush could not used a boost – if Seymour or Colvin miss time it will be bad – but I am saying the Pats don’t need a situational pass rusher.

    3) When the Pats picked up Harrison he had missed 3 games the year before he got here and 2 the year before that so he was considered an injury risk but he played in every game in 2003-2004.
    Gay played 15 games in 2004 and Starks played 15 games in 2004 so both of them should have been considered ok risks. Just too hard to say who will be a risk and who won’t. While I, along with every other Pat fan, would love to see the Pats stay somewhat injury free I actually am somewhat optimistic about the DB situation. I think Hobbs, Samuel and Wilson are all solid. Gay has shown promise. As many issues as the Pats have had in the secondary at least they have youth. I am more worried about the LB core as it is getting old. I think the Pats need to replace Izzo and Don Davis and get some young LBS that can play special teams as well as be groomed to be play LB in a year or two.
     
  15. bunzoburns

    bunzoburns Practice Squad Player

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    Givens will be gone

    He was a 7th rounder which means he was paid peanuts relative to the rest of the NFL receivers. This is his big chance at a pay day.... I doubt we'll offer more than $3 mil a year...we can't afford it.
     
  16. patsox23

    patsox23 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    I'm not sure we "can't afford it." I just think we will choose not to.
     
  17. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    I am honestly hoping someone offers Givens over 5 million. I am also hoping someone offers Ashworth and Neal over 2 million each. That will be some very nice compensation picks for the 2007 draft.
     

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