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Feds Estimate 10.5M Illegal Immigrants

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Real World, Aug 18, 2006.

  1. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah right, 10.5 million. More like 25 million. Does the Administration think that people are that stupid? We've been invaded on a scale unimaginable. It's time to deport people and penalize companies that employ illegals. We need to send a message that our laws, our soveriegnty, and our border needs to be respected. I have no problem with an increase in LEGAL immigration. My issue is with un-documented, illegal immigration. It costs Joe Taxpayer money, as illegals are always poor, and there fore drain social resources.


    Feds Estimate 10.5M Illegal Immigrants

    08/18/2006 11:17:53
    By SUZANNE GAMBOA
    Associated Press Writer

    WASHINGTON - An estimated 10.5 million illegal immigrants were living in the United States in 2005, the federal government said in a report Friday.
    That's up from an estimated 8.5 million living in the country in 2000, according to calculations by the Office of Immigration Statistics in the Department of Homeland Security.

    The office said that with a national average rate of growth of 408,000, the illegal immigrant population is probably about 11 million this year.

    In March, the Pew Hispanic Center used Census Bureau data to estimate that the United States had 11.1 million illegal immigrants in March 2005. The center used monthly population estimates to project a current total of 11.5 million to 12 million.
     
  2. gomezcat

    gomezcat It's SIR Moderator to you Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think that the problem is that no one wants to admit that illegal immigrants in many countries do the work that others are too lazy to do. It is certainly the case here. Illegals in this country don't get access to social housing or benefits. They can ONLY come here to work, unless they get false papers. I ALMOST prefer them to the workshy idiots I come across every day, as someone working in one of the country's most deprived areas, on Housing Projects.
     
  3. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    As the child of two immigrants who came to the United States legally, I am certainly gratefull for the opportunity this country, and most western countries, provide. There certainly is truth to what you say, that immigrants will do the work that regulars may not. That's not the problem though. The issue of immigration is far greater. There are consequences to allowing a mass influx of foreignors into a developed society. As great as diversity is, is also needs to be controlled. Letting 20 million poor, uneducated foreignors into a country is bad policy. Asymilation is lost, anamosity is built, and social services are drained. A nation needs to regulate immigration so as to allow the proper number of educated, skilled, and specialized persons in. There has to be restrictions on age, size of family, and health. For example, you don't want elderly people coming into your country as they do not contribute financially, and only serve to drain social services. You don't want to allow large families of low-skilled, uneducated people in, as they will not contribute nearly as much as they will cost. The health issue need not be explained.

    In my opinion, immigration is a must, a good thing. However, it needs to be done legally, and it has to be controlled.
     
  4. gomezcat

    gomezcat It's SIR Moderator to you Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Good post. I'm certainly not in favour of mass, uncontrolled immigration for the reasons you state, but I wouldn't mind trying amnesties for some of those illegals; many have the "get up and go" lacking in large parts of indigenous people. Quite how one would do that, I don't know.
     
  5. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    I've debated the amnesty issue personally for a while now. It's a difficult one. The US tried that in the 80's under Reagan and it failed miserably. It increased illegal immigration as most saw the policy and felt emboldened to come. The deport em all crowd makes valid points when it cites the injustice of rewarding criminal behavior with residency, while also punishing those outside the US who have abided by our laws, and hav epatiently awaited there turn in line. As a man of principle (with the asteric that reality will always trump principle), I find it hard to disagree with the deport em all crowd. Amnesty is a reward for breaking our laws and it would punish those who have respected them. I'm a real believer in accountability. I feel that illegals should blame no one but themselves if they are deported. After all it was they who knowingly committed the act. When I hear people cite the children they've anchored in this country it does tug at the heart. But governmental policy cannot act on emotion when issuing and carrying out policy. The parents of said children knew exactly what htey were doing before they did it. Asking the American taxpayer to foot the bill for each child and poor family that is already here is unfair and inconscienable. I don't think people understand how much illegals truly cost this country. Schooling, medical bills, extra police, fire, and judicial. The social costs of a non asymilated society which tears at the quality of life of actual citizens also needs to be factored. Again, for me, allow more LEGAL immigrants. Create a guest worker program which would grant a path to citizenship with good standing. This way, we know who is coming, we can reward those who deserve to stay, and can deport those who commit crimes and drain our government.
     
  6. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    Bullcrap. There's no job that people are "too lazy to do". It's all a matter of paying wages that are high enough to entice people to take the work. But the problem is illegals have an unfair advantage. Suppose there is a job that people are willing to do if they can take home $10 an hour. It costs the employer $18 if they hire someone on the books but only $10 for someone getting paid under the table. And, of course, there are no consequences for the employer so they gladly hire the labor pool they can exploit without penalty.

    Law abiding citizens get screwed left and right by the illegals who don't do silly things like pay taxes.

    You're joking, right..?
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2006
  7. Blue Collar

    Blue Collar 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    A very good post QuiGon, if the U.S enforced the hiring laws that exist we would not be in this predicament...Cheap labor and greed and the goverment unwilling to do its job because of the powerful buisness lobby is our enemy on this issue....
     
  8. gomezcat

    gomezcat It's SIR Moderator to you Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I sometimes wonder if people are so used to arguing with liberals that you miss when we make non-liberal arguments, as I did. ;) I'm joking! I take the point about them undercutting law abiding people but that's an argument about how the market should work, surely? It's why US and UK companies have call centres in India and why everything is so cheap in Wal Mart. You're right that illegals are being exploited and undercutting everyone else. That isn't good and I would like to see a different system. The problem is that very few people are actually prepared to pay more for goods, which would be the result of higher wages for the lowest paid workers.
    My point about the lazy didn't relate to those already in work, BTW, and I apologise for putting the point badly. It related to those who live off the backs of the rest of us when they could work.
    I work with some people who choose not to work and instead make a decent living, sponging off the state. With a bit of know how, you can get free housing, £200-250 in your pocket every week tax free and free prescriptions (healthcare is nationalised here. Hospital treatment is free, unless you choose to go private. The system is paid for, by deductions from our pay). There is no cut off point, unlike the US. You can claim benefits for life.
    The jobs have to be done by somebody and that person may often be an illegal alien, at least here in the UK. I am not holding up illegals as a good idea, rather saying that at least part of the problem is some of the lazy f*ckers here. Plenty of them could work and make a definite choice not to do so. It is a big problem for the economy as we have to support them AND find room for more immigration.
    In the UK, you CANNOT get social housing if you are here illegally, at least in theory. You could of course stay with a friend. To get social housing, you need proof of ID, valid immigration documents and you still will have to wait.
    Again, without a National Insurance number (Social Security number), you will not be able to claim benefits. The huge majority of people who abuse the system are British, born and bred.
    Again, as much as I think it would be good to pay people at the bottom more, I suspect that most people wouldn't actually go for it, Employers want their profits, customers want their low prices and so on.
     
  9. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Along with a large portion of the Democratic party. The Dems love impoverished people. The Dems message is that the government will take care of you. Welfare, assisted living, and a higher "minimum" wage are what they reach. See, the dems want people to be dependent upon government services because it guarantee's a locked in voter base. When you get a swath of voters stuck on govt services, and the opposing party is for limited govt (or at least used to be), you do the math.

    I agree that penalizing corporations is key. If there is no work, less will come. But penalizing corporations alone is not enough. You need a multi faceted plan that ensures no social benefits, no work, and no citizenship for illegals.
     
  10. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    That's socialism for you. Here in the states, that the government liberal democrats fight for. Freebies for votes. I'm conservative by nature. I can understand the govt having safeguards and programs in place to help those who clearly cannot help themselves. I'm fine with that. The problem is that our govt has become a welfare organization that burns the working mans cash on lazy loosers and foreignors. Think I'm overboard? I work with HUD/MHFA subsidized housing, section 8 if you will. Trust me, the lazy and the foreign occupy 95% of my units.
     
  11. FreeTedWilliams

    FreeTedWilliams pfadmins PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    First off there are about 30-35 million illegals in the US.

    The "doing the jobs that Americans won't do" is the biggest piece of crap! Since they have unleashed us from the Clinton restrictions on worksite (Tyson chicken paid him off), we've been allowed finally to go arfter employers and what we are finding is that routinely all Americans have been fired so that they can employ illegals at a much lower wage, give them no health insurance, and no problems.

    And don't give me the BS "thay pay taxes" that too is a load of crap, every illegal claims 9=10 dependents on their w-4, so , no they don't opay any taxes, and the business, knowing that the social security number is fake, withholds the money and keeps it for themself.

    I recently hit a factory, who until a few years ago, had about 80% African Americans employees. they had 79% illegals, well know, they are under indictment, and their employees are back to being 80% Americans.

    I, however do not trust Bush on this subject, I fear that he will put the breaks on employer sanctions, the minute he gets his ill fated anmesty passed, however while it lasts, if you know of a company that is dirty, PM me, and I'l send a lead to the proper office.
     
  12. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    That may very well have been the case :D
    No, because part of the concept of a "free market" is that no one group will have an unfair advantage over another with regards to setting prices and determining equilibrium. As I noted before, in order for an honest citizen to take home $10 an hour it costs the business $18. In order for an illegal to take home $10 an hour it costs $10. That prevents the labor marketplace from being a "free market" where citizens and illegals are allowed to compete on equal footing.

    All sorts of strange things happen to supply and demand curves when the government provides subsidies (and it gets even stranger when those subsidies are provided only to a select few) and that is essentially what is happening here. By not charging taxes when a company hires an illegal alien, the government is effectually subsidizing the practice.

    And that's one of the things that sickens me the most above all other things.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 29, 2005
  13. gomezcat

    gomezcat It's SIR Moderator to you Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    To clarify, I made my original point badly. In the UK we have a bunch of people who are career benefits claimants. Without them doing this, companies could hire THEM and use less immigrants. In all honesty (no BS for once), I used the thread to rant about the lazy spongers that I see every day in my line of work. I get more right wing, the more I see of them. On SOME issues, I am less liberal than you might think.
    My point was that at least illegal immigrants get of their arses and work. The claimants sponge of me and everyone else completely legally. I take the point about illegals undercutting genuine workers and that isn't good, either.
    I know illegals don't pay taxes. I never claimed that. Again, I don't condone them or like them. But, there is some sort of market for them as they keep prices low or profits high for some companies.
    The average person is getting screwed, either way. You need to find someone who understands what the real world is like and get them elected.
     
  14. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Does any know if the 10.5 Million is a high, low or just the average number of illegal aliens? Just curious what is the usual benchmark for the number of folks in this category.
     
  15. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    I'd say the 10.5 million fu=igure being released bt the government is about 50% accurate. There are at least 20 million illegals inside this country. There may even be more.
     

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