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Fear is your only God- a study of fear in monkeys


If that's the only thing you see in religion, then I do feel sorry for you. The sincere offerings of lives and fortunes that so many have made lives on, never forgotten, always a benchmark for those who choose to accept and believe things as they are. Purity and honest good will are NOT outside the realm of human ability.

As he said: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."



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What does that have to do with my last post? Who "offered" their lives? The Indians? The Jews of Vilnius? The Manchurians?
 
If that's the only thing you see in religion, then I do feel sorry for you. The sincere offerings of lives and fortunes that so many have made lives on, never forgotten, always a benchmark for those who choose to accept and believe things as they are. Purity and honest good will are NOT outside the realm of human ability.

As he said: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."



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Oh, and the lord works in mysterious ways. :rolleyes:
 
What does that have to do with my last post? Who "offered" their lives? The Indians? The Jews of Vilnius? The Manchurians?


If you have to ask the question you won't understand the answer.

"If you cannot understand the earthly things I tell you, how can you understand the eternal things I have to say?" - Jesus of Nazareth


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If you have to ask the question you won't understand the answer.

"If you cannot understand the earthly things I tell you, how can you understand the eternal things I have to say?" - Jesus of Nazareth


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Where have I heard that before?

Oh yeah...YOU!

That's what you say when you are asked a question whose answer is logical and obvious yet in direct conflict with your POV.
 
Where have I heard that before?

Oh yeah...YOU!

That's what you say when you are asked a question whose answer is logical and obvious yet in direct conflict with your POV.


Yo, wistah!! Have a good weekend!!

Sox have work to do, and Pats training camp is starting up.


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If you have to ask the question you won't understand the answer.

"If you cannot understand the earthly things I tell you, how can you understand the eternal things I have to say?" - Jesus of Nazareth


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Oh, and the lord works in mysterious ways. :rolleyes:
 
So...you see no difference between genocide and war? Did the Nazis commit genocide against the Jews? Did the Japanese commit genocide against the Manchurian Chinese? Did the European invaders of North America not commit genocide against the Indians? Please answer each one because the distinctions are important between "war" and "genocide". Think hard about what you're saying. There is such a thing as genocide. There is such a thing as war. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Not for nothing one of the better books on the Holocaust is titled "The War Against the Jews."

Not only are war and genocide not mutually exclusive, they go hand in hand. In the language of war, you simply declare Total War on a people. There is no question that Ancient Israelites waged genocide against the inhabitants of Canaan.

The only division between a genocide and a war is the intent to wipe out an entire people. In most cases through history (though progressively less often as the multinational state becomes the norm,) the only division was that the genocidist made certain he killed everybody, specifically as the sort of "preventive measure" Foggy condones. The "honorable" warrior -- to the extent that he exists -- fights other combatants. Obviously the much-maligned category of "collateral damage" only exists in that war is not surgery. "Collateral damage" means killing people you're not aiming for. Perversely, the term itself is villified, yet it is an outgrowth of the process of "aiming" at all, which is of course a good thing. It means guys with weapons don't kill children and noncombatants... at least not on purpose.

The utter ignorance of the modern conversation of genocide revealed in statements like "there's no genocide in war" is a copout of enormous proportions. Why not just say "there's no genocide"? One wonders if this was posted in a vacuum of knowledge of World War II/The Holocaust, or whether the contention is that the Holocaust either never happened, or was not a genocide.

As to the seven nations of Canaan: Any modern Jew who has never struggled with the fact of genocide at the founding of his religion is either blissfully ignorant, bad at "connect the dots," or otherwise deluded. I consider it a source of a great deal of perplexion, to use a mild word, that this founding genocide is fact; I consider it a source of pride that most Jews I have spoken to -- reform, secular, orthodox, and conservative -- acknowledge at least that it is a troubling history.

But then the Jews of the world are of a fairly old culture, old enough to have lived slavery, to have exploded into Canaan in a genocidal wave, and old enough to have suffered Rome via the Caesars and via the Church, as well as Chmielniki, the Czars, and of course, the Nazis (the real ones, not the ones we conjure up on bulletin boards, who are simply politicians in the opposite political camp of our own.)

It is possible that people, and peoples, are capable of learning. Let's hope.

PFnV
 
By the way, if the English treated the Indians in a "less than Christian way," but believed this treatment was absolutely in line with their Christianity; and if the genocide of the nations of Canaan is of a piece with the genocide of the Indians; and if the Christians who practiced pogroms and the Holocaust against Jews were "less than Christian," although they all squared their behavior with their Christianity easily enough, isn't it an open question what tomorrow's Christian will say is "less than Christian" among your own attitudes and actions?

I never understood the presumption that this rolling revision of past actions as "not Christian." This applies to all religions I suppose, but I do not say that Joshua acted in a "less than Jewish way." I acknowledge that the actions of the conquest of Canaan were Jewish actions, hence Jews were capable of so acting.

Why practice this delusion that the actions of former Christians were "not Christian," whereas your own actions are?

Why deny that faiths and their adherents behave in different ways, in different settings and eras, and that these different behaviors have always been part of the faiths espoused by those peoples?

Why even bother? The modern faith inherits many treasures from its past, perhaps including the greatest horrors it committed. If there is evil in that past, the individual in the present can at least acknowledge it and wrestle with its significance. To just say it's not part of a religious past is unconscionable. It makes it impossible to learn from history.

PFnV
 
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Which is precisely why the world needs a new religious movement, one that embraces all the good aspects of all other religions to date, but none of the bad points. Can do; must do. It starts with me, and it starts with you; it starts with each one of us deciding to not make the same mistakes all over again.

"Repeating the same errors time and again, but expecting different outcomes, is insane." (paraphrased) -- Albert Einstein


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Which is precisely why the world needs a new religious movement, one that embraces all the good aspects of all other religions to date, but none of the bad points. Can do; must do. It starts with me, and it starts with you; it starts with each one of us deciding to not make the same mistakes all over again.

"Repeating the same errors time and again, but expecting different outcomes, is insane." (paraphrased) -- Albert Einstein


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The last thing the world needs is more religion.
 
Okay Fog and Wildo, follow me here:

We are human beings, not Gods. Our job is to figure out the job of human beings, right?

Now then. If you believe in God, by most standard formulations, you can quite easily believe God to be ultimate Truth.

If you, Fog, are trying to find Truth via the personage of God, you have in your way every concept piled in front of Truth, or sometimes opposed against Truth, to uphold a local and very small concept of God - which, by definition, comprises the entirety of Truth, and is therefore beyond the concept we build of Him.

If you, Wildo, find Truth -- such as 2+2 continues to be 4, anywhere, and whoever does the addition (tards excepted) -- you have found Truth regardless of a need for God's existence. Obviously searching for more bits of that Truth is addictive.

And if there's a God, would he want to be compressed into something less than the fullness of that knowledge?

I'm smack in between the two of you I suppose. I don't feel a need for God but I choose belief. I don't want any such subjective choice to substitute for observation and analysis, nor do I claim such subjective choice to be proof of objective existence. I accept that delusion is a possibility, and embrace that sum greater than its parts as my own "concept," deluded as it may seem. That's why it's called "faith."

But I do not understand how a religious man could object to searching for Truth, or for that matter, why an irreligious man should waste time opposing others' subjective belief--unless actions based thereupon violate one's own rights (again, I am not saying this is an uncommon phenomenon; but it is not universal.)

Having said that: I can understand most of our spats; I do not like the imposition of another's subjective understanding on those who do their own thinking. I do not appreciate the assault on another's subjective reality when he makes no claims to objective infallibility.

If God exists, he will withstand research, progress, questioning, science, and Truth; He should, after all, be synonymous with this last.

PFnV
 
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I understand what your saying, and I'm certainly not going to speculate on why you believe, but I do have one question; Can subjective reality ever conflict with objective reality? If the answer is no, then I fail to see how it isn't just another God of the gaps.
 
Okay Fog and Wildo, follow me here:

We are human beings, not Gods. Our job is to figure out the job of human beings, right?

Now then. If you believe in God, by most standard formulations, you can quite easily believe God to be ultimate Truth.

If you, Fog, are trying to find Truth via the personage of God, you have in your way every concept piled in front of Truth, or sometimes opposed against Truth, to uphold a local and very small concept of God - which, by definition, comprises the entirety of Truth, and is therefore beyond the concept we build of Him.

If you, Wildo, find Truth -- such as 2+2 continues to be 4, anywhere, and whoever does the addition (tards excepted) -- you have found Truth regardless of a need for God's existence. Obviously searching for more bits of that Truth is addictive.

And if there's a God, would he want to be compressed into something less than the fullness of that knowledge?

I'm smack in between the two of you I suppose. I don't feel a need for God but I choose belief. I don't want any such subjective choice to substitute for observation and analysis, nor do I claim such subjective choice to be proof of objective existence. I accept that delusion is a possibility, and embrace that sum greater than its parts as my own "concept," deluded as it may seem. That's why it's called "faith."

But I do not understand how a religious man could object to searching for Truth, or for that matter, why an irreligious man should waste time opposing others' subjective belief--unless actions based thereupon violate one's own rights (again, I am not saying this is an uncommon phenomenon; but it is not universal.)

Having said that: I can understand most of our spats; I do not like the imposition of another's subjective understanding on those who do their own thinking. I do not appreciate the assault on another's subjective reality when he makes no claims to objective infallibility.

If God exists, he will withstand research, progress, questioning, science, and Truth; He should, after all, be synonymous with this last.

PFnV


I agree wholeheartedly with your conclusion here. For me the Ultimate Truth is love. We are made for the sake of love. All things in the universe exist for the sake of love. Everywhere you look there is a positive and a negative version of the same particle, element, ion, plant, animal, and -- especially -- human. In fact all mature adults of any kind of the above always seek out their complementary counter-part: electron seeks proton, anion seeks cation, stamen seeks pistil, male seeks female, man seeks woman, and vice versa. So, throughout the cosmos there is the constant orbiting of one and his/her partner, in perfect balance and perfect harmony, with infinite expressions of creativity and heart. And since this all comes from the Original Source of life, God/Allah/Yahweh/etc, this is God's essential nature, too.

This means, then, that a perfected man and woman together as an absolute couple are the external manifestation of God, the perfected incarnation of God in easily recognizable form. The key element of course is the "perfected" part. Yet, we know from the great teacher, Jesus of Nazareth, that we "... must be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect", so it is well within our reach.

So, in the end, God is not only "out there" but should very much also be "in here", within each and every one of us, where we each stand as part of family (father, mother, children; husband and wife, brother and sister). In fact, it is ONLY when we live this way that God can truly be happy and even fulfill the ultimate hope, dream, and purpose of His many billions of years of creation.


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I understand what your saying, and I'm certainly not going to speculate on why you believe, but I do have one question; Can subjective reality ever conflict with objective reality? If the answer is no, then I fail to see how it isn't just another God of the gaps.

A "God of the gaps" explains what is not explained scientifically with religious belief.

So a "God of the gaps," as well as a raging fundamentalist God absolutely in conflict with scientific observations (say, someone who believes in a flat 4-cornered earth, so we aren't flinging around barbs at any posting here.)

The objective/subjective decision is one that acknowledges basic good manners. It's just plain rude to say "believe this because I believe it so hard." It's fine to say "Hey try dropping a larger and smaller cannon ball from a tower, and you'll see they drop at the same rate." It's even fine to say "Hey try flying in a plane until you find the edge of the flat 4-cornered world." What is not fine is for the flat-worlder to tell you he believes so hard you must believe or there will be otherworldly consequences, in a proactive manner when said belief isn't even in point. Similarly I would not, except in response to said assertion, say to him "YOU! Ignorant flat-earther!!! get on a plane goddammit!!!"

As to my own belief regarding God, Wildo, there's no gap-filling, except one puzzler I have never worked out, vis. the development of subjective consciousness itself.

I can accept that sufficiently complex amino acids interacting just so can combine to form what we call life. After all there are compounds and particles constantly being formed, that behave in this way or that, and under certain circumstances (the circumstance itself being a bit of a gap, but I think people imagine lightning to be involved,) I can see the protein-rich soup yielding the one-celled organism.

No problem with an eye showing up, or a heart, or pretty much any of our constituent parts. The senses sense, the brain responds, the organism continues to evolve, no real gap there for me in any of it.

But what puzzles me is the development of introspective consciousness. We see this most easily in one another, and perhaps in some of the animals. Not "who put it there" or "what is it for", but "how the hell did that happen?" Or even "How the hell can that happen?"

At any rate, as far as a God of the gaps goes, I think that particular puzzler is one of my pet applications of said notion. I stipulate though that I'm fascinated by attempts to explain how and why the light bulb went on. Remember Julian Jaynes? As time went on his ideas of what played which part in the human brain sort of got left in the dustbin...but it was a hell of a try. I'd love to see the next step, but unfortunately science is concerned with the objective.

Pretty funny, huh... it's a really really hard task to even theorize about. But it's this big elephant in the room. I'm ready and eager to see good books on how consciousness came to be, and if you know of good theories I am all ears. You'll note I don't demand the gap to preserve the God; I only perceive it.

As to what my own religious faith is, I try not to go into great detail (no, not because it won't hold up to scrutiny, but because if there's a God, he's bigger than my ability to make the case.) Suffice it to say any God worthy of the name necessitates a cosmos without true division; i.e., these divisions at some plane are illusory. This is in harmony with some of the Buddhists, and (I think) with old Foggy here. It is also the only meaning of the Shema, from man's point of view, that makes real sense. Think of it all as bound up and mutually dependent; the golden rule essentially becomes not to stick yourself in the pee hole with a needle. If all partakes of God, why would I harm myself, by harming "another"?

At any rate, one could say "yes, but that's just application of atomism to the individual; we are all forces and particals whizzing around. That does not imply or prove any sort of religion."


And that's why I don't try to foist beliefs on others. Indeed I wouldn't know how to go about objectively proving such a structure, and people can live just fine without it.

As to how we're organized into these selves, not to mention these more easily explained clumps like rocks and planets, at the bottom there is always the next question, and that gives us a great gift, a world full of (literally) wonder, and we are fortunate or blessed enough to have minds to ask the question. It took billions of years to come by such minds, however they came to be, and I'll be damned if I'll shut it off.

But it's been decreed that by the sweat of my brow shall I make my bread, so gotta go for now.

PFnV
 


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