Faith

[TBradyOwnsYou]

I didnt say that my faith was the only faith. I just happen to believe that it possesses the fullness of truth. There are elements of that same truth in other faiths, in some cases to a very great extent.
But I believe that we can find truth and that faith is the gateway to truth. Besides, what good would faith be if true faith led us to error?
Personally, I would see no value in faith if true faith would lead us away from truth.

Faith: firm belief in something for which there is no proof
Truth: the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality

 

[DarrylS]

Doctrine of Discovery.. religion/faith at its finest.

 

[everlong]

Bold: Why? This is a prime example of my question.
What is so special about "faith" that you feel deserves admiration? A child has faith that a Fairy will come in the middle of the night and leave her money for her tooth. Does this deserve admiration?

I guess it's because you're looking at it as a bad thing. I personally do admire a child who believes in the tooth fairy because there's an innocence there that's sweet and commendable. A person who has a true strong faith and uses that faith to overcome obstacles in their life is admirable. You would call them naive and say that it's a crutch. Much like the other poster wants everybody to have faith like his you want everybody to just say it's all BS because that's what you believe. If faith brings somebody comfort or strength who are you or I to tell them they are wrong or how to live their life?

There's a bunch of YouTube video out there of these atheists from Texas who do this local radio and cable show where they try to shoot down god, the bible, ect. Honestly one of the funniest series on there I've watched. I get why they're doing it. They live in the bible belt and have had religion crammed down their throats all their lives. But on the other hand I think it's a giant waste of their time. They aren't going to change anyone's mind and really the minds aren't theirs for the changing.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

That's pretty much the same thing as saying my way is the only way. Yes other have a few things correct but in the end my truth is the one truth.




When did the Catholic Church abandon the all non Catholics are going to hell motto?




We can agree to disagree on individual truth and again you state there is only one truth, yours. As far as my finding "the" truth I have, my own.

I said very clearly that the church is not the only way to salvation. Im saying that in the church resides the fullness of truth. Believe it or not, that is not saying that someone can't find salvation without the Catholic church. The church teaches that it is, in fact, possible.

The Catholic church has never officialing taught that only Catholics can go to heaven. That is a misrepresentation of church doctrine.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Faith: firm belief in something for which there is no proof
Truth: the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality

I can have faith in God and establish a proof for his existence.

Faith and reason do not contradict each other.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

1. Faith may drive people to action, but who cares? Many other things do too, and they are based in reality. I don't need to believe in Santa Claus to give my wife a present for Christmas.

2. (bold) hahahahahaha. You realize that religion is the SOURCE of social injustice right?

3. False. Faith provides zero knowledge by definition, and it is the religious dogma, not faith, that attempts to (but fails) to provide a "meaning" to life. However, as there have been countless religions throughout history, I'd like to avoid delving down that road and rather stick to the topic of faith itself.

1.) You asked for, "compelling reason to assign any positive social value to having Faith". I showed you several none of which u denied. You just made a flippant comment..."who cares". Well I guess all the people who have been helped by the hospitals, or schools, or shelters. That's who cares.

2.) I think if you do an honest search throughout history (which of course you won't do) the Catholic faith has stood on the side of justice. I've given many examples which you summarily dismissed. Has there been times when her members have failed to live her ideals...of course.
But you can look at any institution and find faults. Im sure as an American you'd be against slavery yet you still are an American (and im sure proud to be one). The people do not always represent the principles. Again, if you're honest about it, you can look at any institution and find fault among it's members.

3.) To say that it doesn't provide knowledge is a rather poor understanding of religion in general. Some of the greatest philosophers in Western civilization have been men of faith.

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

I guess it's because you're looking at it as a bad thing. I personally do admire a child who believes in the tooth fairy because there's an innocence there that's sweet and commendable. A person who has a true strong faith and uses that faith to overcome obstacles in their life is admirable. You would call them naive and say that it's a crutch. Much like the other poster wants everybody to have faith like his you want everybody to just say it's all BS because that's what you believe. If faith brings somebody comfort or strength who are you or I to tell them they are wrong or how to live their life?

There's a bunch of YouTube video out there of these atheists from Texas who do this local radio and cable show where they try to shoot down god, the bible, ect. Honestly one of the funniest series on there I've watched. I get why they're doing it. They live in the bible belt and have had religion crammed down their throats all their lives. But on the other hand I think it's a giant waste of their time. They aren't going to change anyone's mind and really the minds aren't theirs for the changing.

Bold: All the child is doing is showing trust when being lied to, I guess I just don't see that as cute. However, what about when it is an adult? How about an adult who makes decisions on life and death? Can you really say you prefer your engineers and teachers and law makers to be using faith as a lens to which they view the world, as opposed to reason?

Houston: Yeah, I sometimes throw on one of their videos when I run on the treadmill. It can be really entertaining.

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

I can have faith in God and establish a proof for his existence.

Faith and reason do not contradict each other.

Alright, fine. If you wish to jump down this rabbit hole I guess shall oblige you however, may I request it get its own thread?

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

1.) You asked for, "compelling reason to assign any positive social value to having Faith". I showed you several none of which u denied. You just made a flippant comment..."who cares". Well I guess all the people who have been helped by the hospitals, or schools, or shelters. That's who cares.

2.) I think if you do an honest search throughout history (which of course you won't do) the Catholic faith has stood on the side of justice. I've given many examples which you summarily dismissed. Has there been times when her members have failed to live her ideals...of course.
But you can look at any institution and find faults. Im sure as an American you'd be against slavery yet you still are an American (and im sure proud to be one). The people do not always represent the principles. Again, if you're honest about it, you can look at any institution and find fault among it's members.

3.) To say that it doesn't provide knowledge is a rather poor understanding of religion in general. Some of the greatest philosophers in Western civilization have been men of faith.

1. Saying faith has helped others, while ignoring the people who are helped without faith, and those hurt by faith is rather disingenuous.

2. Again, I am referring to "faith" not "a faith." What any particular religion has or has not done in its history is irrelevant to this discussion.

3. Again, just because a "man of faith" did something, does in no way imply that it was because of said faith.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

1. Saying faith has helped others, while ignoring the people who are helped without faith, and those hurt by faith is rather disingenuous.

2. Again, I am referring to "faith" not "a faith." What any particular religion has or has not done in its history is irrelevant to this discussion.

3. Again, just because a "man of faith" did something, does in no way imply that it was because of said faith.

1.) You asked for compelling reason for faith....I gave them to you. If you want to make the point that people without faith have helped people go right ahead. But that wasn't what you asked.

2.) Thats fine. I don't answer for all faiths. They aren't all created equally IMO.

3.) Well, if he does it because of his faith I would say that is the obvious reason. BTW, that philosopher I was thinking about was Augustine.

 

[everlong]

Bold: All the child is doing is showing trust when being lied to, I guess I just don't see that as cute. However, what about when it is an adult? How about an adult who makes decisions on life and death? Can you really say you prefer your engineers and teachers and law makers to be using faith as a lens to which they view the world, as opposed to reason?

I don't care what the engineers, teachers or law makers believe as long as they don't let it affect their job. Law maker and teachers being the perfect examples. A god fearing teacher can be amazing but not because they fear god. Simply because they're a great teacher. Same with an atheist. NEITHER should bring their views into a class room. Something like college theology excluded for obvious reason. Politicians who bring god into the arena make me nuts. It should be about the constitution not the bible. As long as they realize that I don't care what their faith is.

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

1.) You asked for compelling reason for faith....I gave them to you. If you want to make the point that people without faith have helped people go right ahead. But that wasn't what you asked.

2.) Thats fine. I don't answer for all faiths. They aren't all created equally IMO.

3.) Well, if he does it because of his faith I would say that is the obvious reason. BTW, that philosopher I was thinking about was Augustine.

1. A compelling reason for something implies that I would be compelled to it. Since I am able to get help or give help WITHOUT faith, it is NOT a compelling reason FOR faith.

2. You understand what I mean when I say "faith, not a faith" right?

3. We started with: "Faith does all this and gives solace to people with the knowledge that their life has true meaning and won't simply end in dust." and now we're at philosophy. I shall, however, recind my initial objection to your assertion because I was misguided. Knowledge does not imply truth. Just because someone "knows" there are 9 planets, does not mean they are correct.

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

I don't care what the engineers, teachers or law makers believe as long as they don't let it affect their job. Law maker and teachers being the perfect examples. A god fearing teacher can be amazing but not because they fear god. Simply because they're a great teacher. Same with an atheist. NEITHER should bring their views into a class room. Something like college theology excluded for obvious reason. Politicians who bring god into the arena make me nuts. It should be about the constitution not the bible. As long as they realize that I don't care what their faith is.

I agree. However, not caring, and having a preferance are separate. Once a person says "I happily believe in something with no proof, simply because someone told me so" doesn't that bring a question as to how competently they go about the rest of their life, such as teaching your children or making laws or building a bridge you travel across?

I will absolutely defend someone's right to have beliefs I don't agree with. I am just wondering why it is still taboo to question those beliefs. Why is the simple act of believing an unprovable story somehow special in a day and age where you can pull your phone out of your pocket and look up virtually ANYTHING? It is willful ignorance which I find very sad.

(AGAIN: I am referring simply to the act of faith, not to any specific religion or dogma.)

 

[RI Patriots fan]

1. A compelling reason for something implies that I would be compelled to it. Since I am able to get help or give help WITHOUT faith, it is NOT a compelling reason FOR faith.

2. You understand what I mean when I say "faith, not a faith" right?

3. We started with: "Faith does all this and gives solace to people with the knowledge that their life has true meaning and won't simply end in dust." and now we're at philosophy. I shall, however, recind my initial objection to your assertion because I was misguided. Knowledge does not imply truth. Just because someone "knows" there are 9 planets, does not mean they are correct.

First off, asking for a compelling reason does not imply that the reason needs to be compelling just to you. There are many people who attribute their giving to their faith. Mother Teresea would be a good example. Actually I could gives thousands of examples of people who attribute their giving to their faith.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

I agree. However, not caring, and having a preferance are separate. Once a person says "I happily believe in something with no proof, simply because someone told me so" doesn't that bring a question as to how competently they go about the rest of their life, such as teaching your children or making laws or building a bridge you travel across?

I will absolutely defend someone's right to have beliefs I don't agree with. I am just wondering why it is still taboo to question those beliefs. Why is the simple act of believing an unprovable story somehow special in a day and age where you can pull your phone out of your pocket and look up virtually ANYTHING? It is willful ignorance which I find very sad.

(AGAIN: I am referring simply to the act of faith, not to any specific religion or dogma.)

An act of faith is not simply a blind response to stories we were told as kids. It is a real experience that an unbeliever can't understand. It would be like trying to explain to someone who has never been in love what love is.....you can't truly understand it unless you've been in it. You can't measure love. You can't prove love but it moves you to believe things you didn't believe before and that belief turns into actions.

So the act of faith is not a detachment from reason but rather a response to the supernatural that we experience as believers.

 

[DarrylS]

The standard bearers of faith in this area, the Catholic Church should be indicted under the RICO statute....

 

[RI Patriots fan]

The standard bearers of faith in this area, the Catholic Church should be indicted under the RICO statute....

Yes, we get it. You hate the Catholic church. Would you like to actually contribute to this thread or just continue to snipe from your bunker?

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

First off, asking for a compelling reason does not imply that the reason needs to be compelling just to you. There are many people who attribute their giving to their faith. Mother Teresea would be a good example. Actually I could gives thousands of examples of people who attribute their giving to their faith.

Compel: to drive or urge forcefully or irresistibly / to cause to do or occur by overwhelming pressure

You are entitled to your faith, but not your own vocabulary.

You can put on your right shoe, or your left shoe first. You have faith that putting on your right shoe first is best. This is NOT a compelling reason to put your right shoe on first.

Mother Teresa: The fanatic, fraudulent Mother Teresa. - Slate Magazine

 

[everlong]

I agree. However, not caring, and having a preferance are separate. Once a person says "I happily believe in something with no proof, simply because someone told me so" doesn't that bring a question as to how competently they go about the rest of their life, such as teaching your children or making laws or building a bridge you travel across?

I will absolutely defend someone's right to have beliefs I don't agree with. I am just wondering why it is still taboo to question those beliefs. Why is the simple act of believing an unprovable story somehow special in a day and age where you can pull your phone out of your pocket and look up virtually ANYTHING? It is willful ignorance which I find very sad.

(AGAIN: I am referring simply to the act of faith, not to any specific religion or dogma.)

I think you're lumping in a lot of groups together. Sure some people are sheep who do as they're told because it's all they've ever known. There are others who have come to their faith through their life events. I was born Catholic and reject everything they believe in and believe the bible is man made fables set up to control behavior. It doesn't mean I'm right it's just what I believe. I do however believe that the entire universe is connected and that there is an afterlife and reincarnation. I believe in quantum physics and I believe in the soul. Does that make me an idiot? I have no proof it's simply what I believe.

Another way to look at it is this. An engineer takes on a project he's never done before but he has a strong faith not only in god but in himself through god. He believes if putting his mind to something there's nothing he cannot accomplish. Why would I not want this person on my project? You're making a leap that because somebody believes in what you feel is a fairy tale they are utterly incompetent. There's no justification for that leap.

 

[TBradyOwnsYou]

An act of faith is not simply a blind response to stories we were told as kids. It is a real experience that an unbeliever can't understand. It would be like trying to explain to someone who has never been in love what love is.....you can't truly understand it unless you've been in it. You can't measure love. You can't prove love but it moves you to believe things you didn't believe before and that belief turns into actions.

So the act of faith is not a detachment from reason but rather a response to the supernatural that we experience as believers.

Correct. It is NOT a blind response to stories you heard as a kid. Faith is just simply a blind response.

If you are blindfolded and need to turn left or right to find the exit there are two ways you can make the decision: by using faith (ie: choosing randomly or by "gut feeling") or by using reason (ie: using your hands to feel, ears to listen, skin to feel for wind, etc...) Once you use evidence to form a decision it can no longer be called faith; it may be the wrong decision, but it was an informed decision.

Aaaaagain, I am referring simply to the act of faith, not your particular and individual faith that has been molded by years of indoctrination.

Bold: I can't resist. You were born an unbeliever, yet it seemed to have worked for you...