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Facts are in about the 05-06 offseason

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by AndyJohnson, Jan 20, 2007.

  1. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    While there is this tremndous need from some to say the Pats had a bad off-season, with AV, Branch, Givens, McG leaving, we have already reached the point where the judgment on the off-season is a fact.
    It was SUCCESSFUL.
    We improved. We won 2 more regular season games, and are already a round deeper into the playoffs.

    Of course the LEVEL of success is still to be determined. (We still judge success by rings)

    But, the sum total of additions and subtraction has made the Patriots better in 06 than they were in 05, and it is indisputable.

    Thanks, Mr. Belichick and Mr. Pioli.
    (hopefully those that villified your indiviudal decisions will thank you as well for a good job of improving the team with the TOTALITY of those decisions)
  2. zippo59

    zippo59 Rookie

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    And we still have yet to cash in on our nifty extra first round draft pick.
  3. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    True.
    I just found it interesting that so many people were lining up to criticize the off-season moves, and I have yet to see anyone recognize that the off-season moves made us a better team.
  4. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    It's ironic considering Rodney was out for half the season.

    Also Maroney's addition has helped Dillon and the Pats have a legit running attack this year vs last year.

    Ty Warren has had a break out season.

    The secondary has been solidified even when Hobbs entered the starting lineup last year.

    And the O-line is healthy and gelling.
  5. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yeah, I miss those "Brady's prime is being wasted", SP and BB "have lost it", "The season is over" etc..threads. They seem to have fallen by the wayside. And fortunately for us as a group some of the biggest culprits of those threads don't feel the need to stop by anymore. :cool:
  6. arrellbee

    arrellbee Rookie

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    Outstanding point made, Andy.

    I wish I thought that one more example of the success of Belichick and Pioli's approach (if you are paying attention) would silence all of the preseason judgments that they have really blown it 'this' year and the Patriots are doomed. Unfortunately, I don't hold out much hope. We are already seeing threads before the season is even over from folks who think we HAVE to sign certain players no matter what the cost - or, as you can easily guess, the Patriots are 'doomed' next year. Geeeeesh.

    [Did you mean 2006 -2007 season ? (Or do you count offseason as part of 2005 maybe?)]
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2007
  7. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Jumping on this bandwagon too. Well put, Andy, but it's a mere two weeks and a day until the Super Bowl... and whether we get there or not, whether we win it or not, you can predict with certainty an increasing influx of posters who say BB/SP have "gone too far," "jumped the shark," etc.

    But another ring will go a long way toward keeping down the white noise.

    PFnV
  8. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    I was watching the Brown-Sehorn-George show the other night, and Eddie George said the biggest surprise to him was that teh patriots were still in it. Seems like they came out of nowhere.

    I thought, wow, first you guys say the Pats dynasty is gone because they lost players, and then when it's shown the dynasty is alive and strong, rather than say, OOPS, GUESS WE ALL WERE WRONG, you say the Pats came from nowhere.

    The Pats never left, Eddie and Jason. Just becasue you just thought they were doomed doesn't mean they were.

    And the most absolute amazing thing to me is not only are we a better team, WE HAVE TWO FIRST ROUND PICKS FOR NEXT YEAR!
  9. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't think we were ever "favored" except possibly smack in the middle of "the streak," although I think someone else had been annointed during that season too.

    It's uncanny, the ability the Pats have to "come out of nowhere" and still never be considered a dynasty in a given year. It's like Clememceau said about America, that we'd gone from barbarism to decadence without the usual interval of civilization. The Pats went from aberration to declining dynasty without actually being a dynasty in these peoples' minds, except in retrospect.

    Screw these guys. I for one am happy to be "that team that just won't go away." Embrace the dark side.

    PFnV
  10. patpatriot

    patpatriot Banned

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    Yes Andy you could justifiably say the BB/Pioli guessed right this time. Still I would feel a *whole* lot better if AV were still here instead of on the opposing sideline in a big game and that they had found some way of getting Javon Walker to get on that plane out of Denver.
  11. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    how much is javon walker kicking himself as he's sitting at home watching the game tomorrow.
  12. zippo59

    zippo59 Rookie

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    It's really never enough for some people.
  13. patpatriot

    patpatriot Banned

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    No, some people are just truly objective about the situation.
  14. zippo59

    zippo59 Rookie

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    Teams can always get better, but realistically you can't always get every player that would help your team.

    I guess we'll just have to settle for Jabar Gaffney who is leading all WR's in catches and yards in the playoffs, Stephen Gostkowski who has not missed a kick in the playoffs, as well as playing in the AFC Championship game for the right to go to the Superbowl.
  15. BruschiOnTap

    BruschiOnTap Rookie

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    Andy, let me start by saying 'great post,' it was timely and relevant. I'm glad that posters on this board stop to smell the roses :)

    But your eyebrows never raised even a liiiittle bit this past offseason?
  16. patpatriot

    patpatriot Banned

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    Be careful what you wish for...
  17. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    We have talked about the great coaching jobs that Brian Daboll (WRs), and Josh McDaniels (OC), have turned in.

    I'd like to assess the excellent job the FO has done. They entered the season from 2005 with little apparent CAP space only to have the new CBA add about $9 million in space.

    They signed Seymour to a long term extension. All the big time players were locked up. This year they face Asante, Graham and TBC but thats all; with lots of money to address those FAs.

    I'd like to review the draft.

    Draft 2006:

    1 LM is a franchise back, a keeper and a future Star.
    2 CJ did little as a WR but showed that he will be a force in a year or two
    3 David Thomas is a keeper and has definitely assumed the role that Fauria had, of pass catching TE, spot starter.
    4 Mills INComplete.
    4 Gostkowski is a Keeper and a rising star. Now 25 for 32 81.25% and has provided the Pats with a top five in KOs and touch backs. It helps that he has a two tackles too, and gives the coverage a real 11 on 11 versus most teams 11 on 10.
    5 Ryan O Callaghan is a keeper at RT who has starts as a rookie on a good O line. It allowed the Pats to trade Brandon Gorin as surplus.
    6 Mincey didn't make it,
    7 Andrews was drafted as a ST performer and has won a position there, if he can keep it.
    UDFA Pierre Woods is this years UDFA find and looks to have a depth position at OLB.
    UDFA Andrew Spahn is another of this years UDFA find from NFLE as a ST gunner/DB.

    Summary: Five future starters and nine good additions. The single cut is still in the NFL, so they didn't miss, but Woods won the job.

    Veteran FA:

    Several were brought in and ended up on IR but looked to be good additions in-the future.

    1 Mel Mitchell will be a ST addition next season
    2 Tebuckey Jones will be a ST addition next year and a reserve Safety who sees some snaps.
    3 Barry Gardner was adding depth at ILB until he was hurt; will add depth in 2007
    4 Reche Caldwell is a starter and a rising star
    5 Jabbar Gaffney is a starter and a rising star
    6 Jr Seau came looking for a Ring and earned the starting position at ILB for twelve games. He would be welcome back in 2007 if he wants it.
    7 Kelvin Kight came from nowhere to fill the tail end of the WR corps and even had a start and catch.
    8 Sauerbrun was signed and in his tried game served notice he can return to his pro bowl punting years. He saved the San Diego game, IMHO.

    Summary: four starters and 8 keepers

    Players who Broke through:

    Warren played well enough to make the pro Bowl and people noticed.
    Evans beefed up and dramatically improved his lead blocking.
    Mankins made a couple of All Pro teams.
    Britt stepped forward among the second team O linemen. As a soph he had a start or two and served notice there was now a backup at LOT.
    Mike Wright got Jonathan cut, and confirmed he is a spot starter and good reserve on a spectacular D-line.

    At the end of 2006 season the entire Offense is under thirty with but two reserves over thirty. (Dillon & Brown)

    The Defense is younger too. There are only two starters over thirty, but several other experienced ex-starter vet FAs give good depth. (Jr., Harrison, Scott)

    here we are in the AFCCG for the Lamar Hunt Trophy in a rebuilding year! Not bad at all.
  18. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I would list Spann as a street FA since he was signed and sent to NFLE before becoming this seasons yoyo. Mays is a UDFA who has made a mark on STs with Woods giving the Pats both an ILB & OLB to groom.

    Nice attempt to rub some people's noses in reality AJ! Alas, we have at least one in this thread who can't stand the sweet smell of reason.
  19. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Exhaustive breakdown, Az. I have to say CJ can't be annointed a "future success" yet, but he's shown some flashes. The draft was a huge success in my book, with Gost, O'C, and Maroney making the most regular and obvious contributions. But as always, draft grades are still out at least for a year or two. The FA pickups gave HUGE bang for the buck, especially in the playoffs. We did hemmorage free agents this last offseason... but per the model, all except the players with the potential to change the game itself (Seymour/Brady, at present), we deemed to have a certain value, and to be expendable beyond that value. If we think it's hard to take as fans, how must it be to make those cold decisions every year?

    That discipline and "hard-heartedness" is a big part of why we're in the AFC Championship game in a "rebuilding year." The challenge is remembering that this coming off-season.

    PFnV
  20. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The conclusion is spot on. We had a great off season. We had great pickup during the season. This team is stronger than last year as andy, box and I have agreed since we completed the draft. The FO did a GREAT job.

    However, I disagree with the conclusions with regard to the wide receivers:

    Jackson may or may not be a force in the next couple of years
    Caldwell may or may not be a rising star
    Gaffney may or may not be a rising star
    Kight has done nothing as a receiver
    I would add that Gabriel was Ok for a couple of game and then was cut
    Also we traded a player under contract for a future #1

    BOTTOM LINE
    1) We spent almost nothing on the wide receiver position, saving cap money and securing a future #1 and #4 (the comp we should get for Givens). We have had HUGE success at this position considering what we spent. It is all about value. We can't spend the cap money at every position. This year we chose to use the available cap money to extend Seymour and bank $6M and a draft choice or two, not bad value at all.
    2) To put it another way, as of now the top three wide receivers for the colts would be huge upgrades on our team. I would expect this would be the case for the rest of the careers of both sets of receivers.
    3) Not adding a top or mid-level corner was a major failure in the offseason. However, we did sign Poteat, and extend Scott and later upgraded with Mickens during the season, enough to get us through so far.

    Personally, I would have spent $6M of 2006 cap money on Ty Law. It is only my speculation, but my guess is that it was all about money. And if y'all think that this team would not be and is not better with Ty Law instead of Spann, I respectfully suggest that you watch some tape of Law playing this year, and listen to a couple of experts on this subject, the QB's and coaches who played against him.

    And the team would look better with 2006 Milloy, but he was unavailable.

    just my 2 cents
  21. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yes, and...

    We got Seymour done. Right there you have a successful offseason. The fact that with all said and done, we're between 3 mil under cap, and slightly over cap and being penalized (the range of guesses I've read lately,) should suggest there simply wasn't the cash this year to do everything we could have wished for. Brilliant rearview mirror analysis, I guess. But there it is... the in-season pickups have come through great, though they might or might not end up as "team building" pieces. Caldwell and Gaffney have far outplayed their pre-Pats potential, however, and we can only look at their blossoming here as a success (whether one-year wonders, or permanent additions.)

    I'm still waiting on pins and needles for tomorrow night of course.. but this is the real story this season, from a Pats fan point of view: We're 60 minutes away from a Super Bowl berth, in a year when we weren't "supposed" to win the division.

    When are pundits going to learn to stop counting out the dominant team of the 2000s?

    PFnV
  22. BradfordPatsFan

    BradfordPatsFan Rookie

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    Can we sticky the original post in this thread for next spring/summer?

    You cannot judge an offseason until the subsequent season is over. You need to see how the players play.
  23. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    Or fantasizing. Why stop with AV. Wouldn't you feel even more comfortable if we had Branch, WMG, Givens, Milloy, Ted Washington, Woody, Mike Haynes, John Hannah, Andre Tippet and Gino Cappilletti?
  24. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Great post AZ, sometimes we don't appreciate how good we have it RIGHT NOW!

    Consider all the guys currently on IR in addition to the guys on the roster ( R Gay and Wilson) then add in the draft picks for this coming draft (figuring some of the comp picks will be pretty good, camp next summer will be crazy with talent.

    Somehow the roster has the potential to get even better next year. It will be interesting to see hwo we can do with our FA's.
  25. patpatriot

    patpatriot Banned

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    Cause AV is the only one of those players who could truly break my heart tomorrow night.
  26. captain stone

    captain stone Rookie

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    Thank you for making me feel the need.

    Without further ado, then, here are the FO's FUps over the past year:

    1) The Vinitraitor should have been franchised.

    2) Meion should not have been traded until after the season.

    3) Tim Dwight should have been re-signed, if for nothing other than continuity's sake.

    4) Doug Gabriel was, in the words of Dennis Green, who I thought he was: a waste of an '07 5th-round pick.

    5) A vet LT, capable of starting, should have been signed in case Light and Kaczur weren't 100% (they still aren't) out of TC.

    6) A vet NT, capable of backing up Wilfork, should have been signed. Or, keep Jonathan Sullivan, in the hope that he matures, and relegate LeKevin Smith to the PS.

    7) The LB "depth" is atrocious. Having Seau and Gardner go on IR obviously hurt, but no vets were brought in to replace them.

    8) Gostkowski and Garrett Mills were taken 2 rounds too soon. Those 2 4th-rounders could have been better used on Mark Anderson and a DB, e.g. Will Blackmon, Alan Zemaitis, Patrick Watkins or Dawan Landry.

    9) Dan Stevenson = the next Joe Andruzzi...I think that's a no.

    10) S Antoine Bethea was available at the end of the 6th round; Smith and Stevenson were chosen instead. And Jeremy Mincey, too, earlier in the round.

    I hate to sound like Marc Antony, but remember folks, nobody's perfect.

    We now return to our regularly scheduled programming...
  27. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Closest things to a blemish I see, in retrospect, is Doug Gabriel. I don't know what went down there, whether it was just poor play in the Pats' eyes, or that one turnover, or some other weirdness. Be he came and went faster than a ten dollar streetwalker.

    Nope, nobody is perfect. The question is, "how'd they do"?

    It should be pointed out that, when selecting talent in the draft, players do not come with a "first year success in your system" videotape, so the point on Bethea is a bit lame.

    Who was still available at which time is a pretty poor way to analyze, especially when you have no idea of whether Bethea holds up. You can look at the Pats' draft last year and say, however, that the Jackson verdict is still out, but that a number of other positions immediately benefitted from the selections.

    I also hold to my "wait three years" argument regarding any draft breakdown.

    Yeah, I will agree, "nobody's perfect..." But going backwards from last year's work is what you'd assume by a lot of the chicken littles here. We've moved forward, and for that matter, may win it all.

    And the chorus of "cheap cheap cheap" is once again meaningless, with the Pats at or near "spent to the cap" level. You just can't afford the world's greatest talent at every position (sorry Javon... I know it's got to be hard watching from home.)

    Do I feel dumb throwing away a fifth rounder on Gabriel that did not work out...? Yah. Do I feel better getting a first rounder for Deion? OH yeah.

    PFnV
  28. BelizePats

    BelizePats Rookie

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    No, nobody is perfect. But the bottom line here is that the front office had a very good off season, which was directly responsible for where were are as of this morning, which is one game from playing in another superbowl. While not every move turned out to be a home run, the collective quality of the 2006 off season is hard to argue. It has also set us un nicely for future years in terms of draft picks, both Seatles first and the comp picks we'll get for players who were allowed to leave.
    The Branch apologist crowd has mercifully been silenced. We have Seatle's 1st round pick (24th over all) Does anyone here really think that we will not have a quality starter from this pick within 2 years, given BB and SP's track record? And best of all, Branch pretty much did for them what he did for us. 4 touchdowns and about 750 yards. Is this kind of production worth a 30+ million. I do not think so. If you asked Seattle if they would do the trade over again, what do you think they'd say? Exactly!!!
    Fiscal responsibility is every bit as important in todays NFL as is player evaluations and scouting. This is the new NFL and there are still franchises out there that have not figured this out.
    As to AV, he did not want to be here anymore and has admitted that he did not give the Pats much of an opportunity to get something done. Our front office has decided that once a player does not want to be here, he's gone. Do you think that Andy Reid wishes he had this kind of determination? The TO fiasco would have been negated had he been as sure of what he was doing as our front office is.
    Mistakes are made but our front office is better than anyone else's in the league. The 2006 off season was excellent and anyone who says that this is not true is doing so because they have some type of axe to grind.
    Respects,

    Rich
  29. FreeTedWilliams

    FreeTedWilliams Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Do not discount that BOTH Bruschi and Hobbs have played the entire season with broken wrists!

    Once again, if the Pats didn't have to IR
    Randal Gay
    Tebucky
    Garret Mills (still think he is going to be the new prototypically FB)
    Jr Seau
    Eugene Wilson

    Plus a losing Rodney for half a season.

    I would have loved to seen the record.
  30. patsfaninpa

    patsfaninpa Rookie

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    Don't forget Dan Koppen. We extended him this year too. There was a lot of speculation he was going to leave. I feel he is the key to the ol. Maybe, not it's best player. But, the most intergral piece.

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