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FactCheck.org weighs in on Healthcare reform

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by KontradictioN, Sep 6, 2009.

  1. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey
    Twenty-six Lies About H.R. 3200 | FactCheck.org

    Just thought some of you might like to see answers to various claims made on the Healthcare bill by FactCheck.org, an "unblastable" resource. The biggest thing that stood out to me is the fact that the bill states that no non-U.S. citizens, illegal or not, will receive government sponsored health care.

  2. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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  3. alvinnf

    alvinnf Rookie

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    It also doesn't stipulate proper ID verification or any proof of citizenship. Let's not be naive.
  4. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Rookie

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    Won't the individual hospitals take care of that if their claims for 5,647 Jose Garcias, all using the same SS#, get rejected by the feds?
  5. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Do you believe that nobody is going to have to show any ID whatsoever when applying for this type of insurance?
  6. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think he's talking about when you get the insurance. Either way, you're going to eventually run into a dead end. I can't think of a single thing in this country where thousands of dollars are at stake over you (as in, say, a hospital visit) where you do not have to show identification.
  7. PatsFanInMaine

    PatsFanInMaine Rookie

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    Rep. Nathan Deal introduced an amendment to HR3200 to require it's participants to pass the requirements of the SAVE Program. The SAVE Program (Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements) is an inter-governmental initiative used to verify a persons citizenship. It has been in existence since 1986. The list of government agencies that use the SAVE Program include Temporary Assistance to Needy Families Program, the Medicaid Program, the Unemployment Compensation Program , Title IV Educational Assistance Programs and certain Housing Assistance Programs administered by the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development. Passage of this amendment would have put in place a mechanism in HR3200 to verify a participants eligibility based on their legal status of citizenship. The amendment was defeated by Democrats on a party line vote.
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2009
  8. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You cannot deny anyone access to emergency room medical care right now, whether you are a citizen or an illegal...
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2009
  9. alvinnf

    alvinnf Rookie

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    There are no provisions in the current health care bill being discussed that preclude illegal aliens. So the question is, are we comfortable covering illegal aliens? Then the follow up question would be, why are the Dem's not willing to preclude them?
  10. PatsFanInMaine

    PatsFanInMaine Rookie

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    The provisions were discussed and Democrats voted them down.
  11. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If an illegal comes to an emergency room after getting hit by a car, do you deny treatment???
  12. alvinnf

    alvinnf Rookie

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    No, you bandage him up, strap him to a gurney and wheel him back from wence he came!
  13. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Rookie

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    I'm comfortable covering illegal aliens, but ONLY if they pay taxes. Let's face facts that there are millions here illegally and we aren' going to change that and they do many of the jobs that native-born Americans won't.
    Here's a radical idea, protect our borders to prevent a future influx, give the ones here now amnesty but require them to pay taxes. If they are going to be covered by the health insurance, they ought to pay their fair share. If they don't pay the taxes, deport them.
    The counter argument will be that their employers aren't taking taxes out and they'll hire someone who doesn't complain. If the employees are being paid under the table, include them in the whistleblower program which the IRS has and the reporter gets 10% of the money collected. It will take part of the underground economy above board and bring more revenue into the government. It will also level the playing field for those employers who pay taxes on all their employees.
    While the current proposed legislation doesn't allow coverage for illegal aliens, the hospitals still have to provide emergency care to anyone walking through the door and if they are not paid for it (coupled with $500 billion in lower Medicare payments) it will squeeze the hospitals and degrade care.
    My idea would protect the hospitals (no unreimbursed care) and increase revenue to the government. If as economists have postulated that 10% of the economy is unreported and even half of that is reported, there's a lot of revenue to hopefully offset the debt.

    FrontPage Magazine - Going Underground: America's Shadow Economy
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2009
  14. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Rookie

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    I wouldn't say it's unblastable but it isn't a 'left wing' or 'right wing' on average...
    From the article..
    >>>>
    " Claim: Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed! False: This section says nothing whatsoever about “rationing” or anything of the sort. Actually, it’s favorable to families and individuals, placing an annual cap on what they could pay out of pocket if covered by a basic, “essential benefits package.” The limits would be $5,000 for an individual, $10,000 for a family."<<<<<<


    That's true but if you add 50 million people to a system with 250 million already covered(up 20%) with the same number of health care providers and hospital beds and MRIs, what happens? It takes much longer to get an appointment and you will wait longer for care.
    Is that rationing or just overburdening the system?
  15. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No but if he walks in with in with stomach pains and wants a FREE exam with my money I will tell him to "go the f-ck home"
  16. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    Quick, how's Auntie Zinutti back on public housing, when she was supposed to be deported a long, long time ago? Hmmmm....nah, illegals don't get gubmit freebies. Never happens.
  17. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Actually, I'd go with the latter. Are there any Brits in this message board that can tell us what the average wait is in a hospital? I've heard that 4-5 hours is common. Imagine having a broken arm...
  18. alvinnf

    alvinnf Rookie

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    How the hell are we going to get illegals to pay taxes?
  19. Real World

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    This is diarea of the brain. We did a "one-time" Amnesty back in 1987, with a sealed border promise, and a "never let it happen again" promise. How'd that work out for us? Furthermore, if you pay people properly, they'll do any job you ask them. This idea that they do jobs americans won't, is a flat out lie. Illegals do jobs americans won't do, for the wage that's being paid, is more accurate. Americans collect garbage in 100 degree heat, clean out poop clogged drains in roach infested houses, and service port-o-potties all across the land. Those aren't jobs anyone "wants to do", but they are done just the same. Why? Cuz the wages are good. Pay people, and they'll do anything. Don't pay people, and you'll find illegals willing to do it for half price. Of course, nothing is truly half price. It's merely subsidized by the people who earn more.
  20. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Dude, I don't know when the last time you visited an ER here in The USA was but a 4-5 hour wait for a broken arm would be considered either just about normal or even a bit quick depending on where you live at and what time of day it is.

    (won't let me insert link because this is my first post. Trust me, there's a link - the average wait-time in an American ER is 222 minutes. Google it.)


    I know - I spent 15 years working in an ER. A broken arm is fairly low down on the totem pole as far as getting seen quickly. I mean, sure it hurts and all, but almost no one dies from a broken arm so there's nothing that says it needs (or deserves) immediate treatment. Walk into an ER with a broken arm and you'll most likely get a sling, a bag of ice, an order for an Xray and a seat in the waiting room and if it doesn't look broken, you might not get the first two depending on how busy the triage nurse is at the time.

    It just kills me when people feel it necessary to whine about the wait times in countries like Canada or England - obviously none of those whining have had a reason to attempt to make an appointment with a specialist here in the USA. When I first moved to VA I had to find a cardiologist - most of the offices I called either A) weren't accepting new patients at all or B) didn't have an appointment available for at least 2 to 3 months - and I live in a big city with lots of doctors and specialists and hospitals.

    I work in with a one-doctor-small-practice rehab doctor now - and while we try very hard to get new patients in within 48-72 hours I've had people tell me that they had tried larger facilities before ours and were told that they would have to wait months before they could even be evaluated for whatever treatment their doctor had ordered.

    Sure the wait times in Canada and England can be long - but not any longer than they are here.

    Oh!! But Wait!! There is one big difference!!

    In Canada and England everyone will eventually be taken care of - here only those with insurance or cold hard cash, and plenty of it, will ever actually get through the door.
  21. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Oh no she di'int.

    Okay it's over now guys. The liberal of the family is on the board :D

    PFnV
  22. alvinnf

    alvinnf Rookie

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    I hope this wasn't the marriage counselor's idea?
  23. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Illegals pay taxes all the time. Granted they're paying them without any hope of reaping the benefits like medicare or social security or unemployment compensation should they lose their job - and they'll never be able to collect a refund at the end of the year like so many of us do when we've overpaid but still - they pay 'em.

    Any illegal that works a job that cuts them a payroll check is paying taxes....those taxes may be being paid in someone else's name, of course, or they may be being paid on an alias or a faked ID but make no mistake, they're being paid.

    A stunning 2/3rds of all illegal aliens pay taxes, as a matter of fact. I'm not allowed to post links yet but check out reason.org/news/show/122411.html for yourself.

    In 1996 the Internal Revenue Service began issuing identification numbers to enable illegal immigrants who don't have Social Security numbers to file taxes.

    One might have imagined that those fearing deportation or confronting the prospect of paying for their safety net through their own meager wages would take a pass on the IRS' scheme. Not so. Close to 8 million of the 12 million or so illegal aliens in the country today file personal income taxes using these numbers, contributing billions to federal coffers.


    What's more, aliens who are not self-employed have Social Security and Medicare taxes automatically withheld from their paychecks. Since undocumented workers have only fake numbers, they'll never be able to collect the benefits these taxes are meant to pay for. Last year, the revenues from these fake numbers — that the Social Security administration stashes in the "earnings suspense file" — added up to 10 percent of the Social Security surplus. The file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year.

    Beyond federal taxes, all illegals automatically pay state sales taxes that contribute toward the upkeep of public facilities such as roads that they use, and property taxes through their rent that contribute toward the schooling of their children. The non-partisan National Research Council found that when the taxes paid by the children of low-skilled immigrant families � most of whom are illegal — are factored in, they contribute on average $80,000 more to federal coffers than they consume.


    A reasonable person, one capable of doing the math, has got to ask himself, "Who's milking who?"

    MrsPFnV
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2009
  24. PatsFanInVa

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    whom.

    No sugar tonight in my coffee/No sugar tonight in my tea...
  25. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Last edited: Sep 7, 2009
  26. DarrylS

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    A husband wife team, this could prove interesting... particularly an intelligent one.
  27. godef

    godef Rookie

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    And that's not called treatment? :confused:
  28. godef

    godef Rookie

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    Make 'em legal. Just like towns enticing business to build to help raise the tax rolls. But oops, I guess that would screw up the majority white balance.
  29. PatsFanInVa

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    You can't go around saying sh1t like that! :rolleyes:

    Also you really, really can't say things like... why don't we let all the secessionists in Texas, Alaska, etc. etc., run off with part of their states, and fill the remainder of all those who want to be U.S. citizens but are denied the opportunity.

    Man people's brains would explode. But it seems a fairly simple solution... get citizens who love the U.S., and lose the traitors.

    What's not to like?

    PFnV
  30. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not really. I went to the hospital last summer for a badly separated shoulder. I waited in the hospital (a crowded hospital in downtown Jacksonville no less) for 20 minutes in agonizing pain before I was admitted. And that place was CROWDED.

    I have a Brit in one of my classes in college who said that it isn't uncommon in Britain to wait 10 hours in an ER unless you are dying/bleeding to death. That's why I asked. As for the wait time here, it's simple math really. The more people that are insured, the higher the wait time in the hospital.
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2009

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